Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side weight?

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vicsmyth
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Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side weight?

Post by vicsmyth » February 8th, 2019, 9:29 pm

With the new USBC rules allowing for static weights to increase to 3oz, has anyone been experimenting with plugging balance holes and seeing how their ball reacts with the extra side weight?

I have an old ball that I re-drilled for a Rico layout. I used the thumb hole of the previous layout as a P4 balance hole. It was just about perfectly balanced except for one quadrant showing 1/4oz bottom weight. It rolled and hit like a house ball. My PAP did not migrate at all. I plugged the balance hole giving it about 2oz side and 2oz finger weight and was shocked at the difference in reactions, my PAP went crazy in the hook and roll phase. The ball hooked and hit like a brick.

Just wondering if others have tried this.

I might add that I am a rev-dominant stroker about 225 revs, 16 off the hand, 45-60 rotation, 15-20 tilt.

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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by EricHartwell » February 9th, 2019, 1:07 am

vicsmyth wrote:With the new USBC rules allowing for static weights to increase to 3oz, has anyone been experimenting with plugging balance holes and seeing how their ball reacts with the extra side weight?

I have an old ball that I re-drilled for a Rico layout. I used the thumb hole of the previous layout as a P4 balance hole. It was just about perfectly balanced except for one quadrant showing 1/4oz bottom weight. It rolled and hit like a house ball. My PAP did not migrate at all. I plugged the balance hole giving it about 2oz side and 2oz finger weight and was shocked at the difference in reactions, my PAP went crazy in the hook and roll phase. The ball hooked and hit like a brick.

Just wondering if others have tried this.

I might add that I am a rev-dominant stroker about 225 revs, 16 off the hand, 45-60 rotation, 15-20 tilt.
Plugging the balance hole in a Rico drilling would add thumb weight not finger weight.
Was the balance hole in the correct place for the Rico drilling?
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by snick » February 9th, 2019, 9:35 am

I predict that a 3oz shift in static weights in any direction will have precisely zero measurable effect on ball motion. Changes to the coverstock surface after 6 shots is likely to be vastly more significant to ball motion than a minor static weight imbalance.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by vicsmyth » February 9th, 2019, 5:02 pm

EricHartwell wrote:Plugging the balance hole in a Rico drilling would add thumb weight not finger weight.
My mistake, I meant to say thumb weight. A more accurate measurement gave me 2-1/2oz side, 1oz thumb weight. The xhole, which was the thumb hole of the original layout before I drilled it for the Rico layout, was about 1" off from the Rico specs.

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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by vicsmyth » February 9th, 2019, 5:12 pm

snick wrote:I predict that a 3oz shift in static weights in any direction will have precisely zero measurable effect on ball motion.
This may be true for someone with your rev rate, but my experience as a stroker with higher tilt (225 revs off the hand, 20-25* tilt) is that top weight and side weight helps the ball tip over into a roll on oily conditions giving it more continuation, less deflection, into the pocket. But I know that this is a controversial subject, I'll drop it.

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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by mrbean » February 18th, 2019, 2:13 am

yes i got a NIB faball tour gear hammer hitman (nobody else has heard of it either) and i put 3 oz of side weight in it because i figured the cover would be fairly weak on todays oils. it did seem to help, but i can't be sure since i didn't throw it with a different layout. it might also have to do with slower ball speed (13-14).
here is that ball if anyone is curious.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by vicsmyth » February 18th, 2019, 4:24 pm

I've been doing some experimenting with an old ball (practice only, not league) adding rebar to different balance hole locations to see the effect on the ball. There is a definite difference in PAP migration, hook, and hitting power of the ball.

I might be committing forum suicide, but here goes for the curious:

If you drill a 5/8" hole 1-3/4" deep in a P4 or P1 location (the only two Ive tried so far), you'll just hit the core on most balls. You can then add in a piece of 1-1/4" long 1/2" rebar with a total weight gain of about 1oz. You can secure the rebar with a drywall screw, making sure that it does not protrude and touch the lane. If you drill 3 holes like this you can adjust the different amounts of weight added to the ball up to about 2-1/2oz and see if there is any difference when you roll the ball.

The goal is once I find something that seems to work, to layout a ball trying to use those static weights. Though I am not sure what this will do to the RG and other variables of the ball.

In the attached picture one of the rebar holes I sealed with plugging material, the other two are adjustable.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by snick » February 18th, 2019, 8:29 pm

FYI, the change to 3oz static weights was simply allow plugging balance holes in advance of the equipment rule changes in 2020.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by DarkHorse » February 18th, 2019, 8:30 pm

vicsmyth wrote:Though I am not sure what this will do to the RG and other variables of the ball.
And there's the rub. How can you be sure that the observed result is strictly due to the resulting static weights vs. the change in RG values?

I can appreciate your curiosity, and I won't vilify you for trying something different (I can't speak for anybody else, though). Curiosity like this is necessary for progress and innovation. Just be aware that what you're doing is not a statistical analysis, so don't be surprised if the ball you drill after your experiment doesn't behave the same as your franken-ball.

And in case it hasn't occurred to you, it must be the exact same ball, and the Pin would need to be in the same position. Also should be Symmetrical, since altering CG location on an Asym would shift the PSA, which would discount any findings.

Regarding the original topic, I have only plugged 1 balance hole as a direct response to the new rules. It is a Motiv Venom Panic that I got used, 90x4.75x70. It had no balance hole, and I loved the reaction at a smooth 2000 grit. Sadly, it had excessive thumb weight, so I had to drill a small P3. I took out about 1/2 oz thumb and 1/4 oz side to get back to legal, and the difference in reaction was negligible. After plugging the P3, the difference is still negligible. But it doesn't have 3 oz anything; closer to 1 oz side and 1.25 oz thumb.

The study USBC put out recently estimated a ball changing from 1 oz side to 3 oz side might see ~1.2 boards of extra hook. Lots of variables weren't accounted for, but at least it's something.
The same study stated that balance holes had a greater effect on ball motion than the new changes in static weights. (ostensibly the reason for the change)

If you feel that the extra side weight, on a Symmetric ball, will help your ball motion, go for it. It seems like you do your own work, so it doesn't cost you much. And if you don't like it, you can drill it back out and use it for the next year. Just don't preach it as gospel until you can prove something.

For Asymmetrical equipment, I strongly recommend ignoring side weight. I've only seen a couple Asyms with the PSA past the PAP (negative Drilling Angle!) because somebody wanted more side-weight for more hook (or back-end, whatever), but those balls were absolute turds. I expect to see more in the next couple years.

And to be clear, I don't advocate sealing foreign material in a balance hole, as that would be illegal for sanctioned competition. I realize and accept your statement that you are doing this only as an experiment.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by snick » February 19th, 2019, 1:01 am

In order to conduct a valid analysis of the effect of static weights on ball motion, a few things would have be constants:
>Starting top weight and pin -> CG distance should be identical from ball to ball.
>Finger and thumb holes should have identical depth, pitches and spans.
>Post-drilling CG location would have to be measured and marked on the surface of the ball.
>Relationship between the PAP and marked post drilling CG location would be the variable, as opposed to measuring relative to the center of grip.
>Finger and thumb weight are irrelevant; only the ending top weight and it's position relative to the PAP are important.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by vicsmyth » February 19th, 2019, 9:26 pm

I thank-you for your replies and I appreciate the critique. I know that what I'm doing is not scientific in the sense that I have controlled all the variables. Seeing that I don't throw the ball the same way twice, I would need a throwbot to do that. But I can can gain some knowledge about static weights and ball motions, how it shifts the cg, and, more importantly, what seems to work for me on my lane conditions.

I was just wondering if anyone else has tried the same.

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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by J_w73 » March 27th, 2019, 4:01 am

vicsmyth wrote:
This may be true for someone with your rev rate, but my experience as a stroker with higher tilt (225 revs off the hand, 20-25* tilt) is that top weight and side weight helps the ball tip over into a roll on oily conditions giving it more continuation, less deflection, into the pocket. But I know that this is a controversial subject, I'll drop it.
You are correct. Static weights will affect slower speed and lower rpm players more.
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by jakester » August 10th, 2019, 9:23 pm

great thread guys. I've been curious about plugging one one my two more cash balls and having more finger weight in it just for kicks.

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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by DAVIDINIL » September 4th, 2019, 2:34 am

J_w73 wrote:
You are correct. Static weights will affect slower speed and lower rpm players more.
Do you think it would have enough effect on a slower speed lower rev player to make a noticeable impact on ball motion and carry?
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by MegaMav » September 4th, 2019, 10:35 pm

DAVIDINIL wrote:
Do you think it would have enough effect on a slower speed lower rev player to make a noticeable impact on ball motion and carry?
From what I understand static weight, especially side weight has more effect on ball motion the slower the speed.
Plenty of reading material on static weight here: https://www.bowl.com/BowlingTechnologyStudy/
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Re: Anybody experimenting with 3oz finger, thumb or side wei

Post by J_w73 » September 6th, 2019, 8:26 pm

DAVIDINIL wrote:
Do you think it would have enough effect on a slower speed lower rev player to make a noticeable impact on ball motion and carry?
I think it would. It really depends on how slow we are talking. I know some seniors that are rolling at 11 to 13 mph( off the hand) with an end over end roll. Put the weight in a negative balance location and their ball will back up to the right.. Give them positive top and side weight and some flare and they get good movement to the pocket .
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