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 Post subject: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:58 am Post Number: #1 Post
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As an experiment, I drilled 3 balls, all of which are very similar, identically. Got very different reactions and I'm not sure why. Here are the three balls chosen with their specs. All are 15 lbs:

Motive Jackal Ghost RG/Diff: 2.47/.54
DV8 Pitbull Bite RG/Diff: 2.48/.055
DV8 Pitbull Growl RG/Diff: 2.48/.055

The surface on all three balls was made identical: 360/1000. The drilling was also identical on all three: 55/6/30. All 3 were thrown on a THS, by the same bowler. Knowing this house shot, my expectation was that all three would give moderate length and then give a long very strong backend reaction. That's exactly what happened... with the Jackal Ghost. Both of the DV8 balls reacted similarly. They went quite a bit longer than the Jackal and when they hooked, they hooked very weakly. Moving inside a bit, the Jackal went longer and was a bit sharper in the backend. The two DV8 balls went nearly completely straight, barely hooking at all.

The difference in reactions really surprised me considering the similarity between the 3 balls and how they were drilled and the surface was prepared identically. As an additional experiment, I drilled a DV8 Grudge Hybrid (2.48/.56) identically. It reacted very similarly to the Jackal (a little longer and a little sharper backend).

Any thoughts on why the 2 Pitbulls reacted so differently from the Jackal?


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:20 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Probably different core shapes, and different cover stock formulas between the two manufacturers.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:50 am Post Number: #3 Post
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GrumpyCatFace wrote:
Probably different core shapes, and different cover stock formulas between the two manufacturers.


Thought about that. The core shapes are fairly similar, asymmetric bulb-type shapes. You could be right about the cover stock formulas, though the difference was pretty stark.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:08 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Definitely the coverstock, but now you know so you can make adjustments to the covers so you can have different looks

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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:07 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Interesting......I have a question. Tell me your resurfacing procedure. Which ball was 1st? Did you start w/ a fresh pad? Did you use the same pads for all 3?


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:23 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Definitely the coverstock, but now you know so you can make adjustments to the covers so you can have different looks


That's what I thought, too. The Jackal is my "go to" ball when there is any kind of significant oil. I've tried different surface preps with the other balls... all the way from sanding to 360 to going up to 2000, to putting some polish on them. Both balls continue to react the same. The only difference the different surfaces make is how soon they hook, though the difference isn't that big. And the backend is still real weak.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:27 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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imagonman wrote:
Interesting......I have a question. Tell me your resurfacing procedure. Which ball was 1st? Did you start w/ a fresh pad? Did you use the same pads for all 3?


Jackal, Bite, Growl, in that order. Fresh pads, used the same for all three. Put them on the ball spinner, 15 seconds 4 sides with the 360 with solid pressure, 15 seconds 4 sides with the 1000 with lighter pressure. When I first got these reactions, I decided to try new pads on the Bite and Growl. When I did that, the reaction did not change.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:36 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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lpc300 wrote:

That's what I thought, too. The Jackal is my "go to" ball when there is any kind of significant oil. I've tried different surface preps with the other balls... all the way from sanding to 360 to going up to 2000, to putting some polish on them. Both balls continue to react the same. The only difference the different surfaces make is how soon they hook, though the difference isn't that big. And the backend is still real weak.
Long pins on asymmetrical balls make them face up very soon. If you are after more backend, you need to go short pins. I would not use 6" pin to PAP distances on asymmetrical balls for anyone with less that 25* of tilt. Joey Cerrar used to do it, but he was using something like 70* drilling angles with 10* Val angles.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:46 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Long pins on asymmetrical balls make them face up very soon. If you are after more backend, you need to go short pins. I would not use 6" pin to PAP distances on asymmetrical balls for anyone with less that 25* of tilt.


Exactly my experience too. I'm guessing the OP is a lower tilt/high track bowler, or else that pin would be left of the middle finger. What are your release specs?

I've used 5" to 5.5" pins on some strong equipment (Eternal Cell, Menace, Guru Limited) and I need to be in the heavy oil to make it work. Sport shots and some long/heavy house shots. I have not done 6+.

Try a pin distance more like 4-4.25", and you'll be happier with the shape and the overall reaction. I've got lots of strong asym stuff like this and love it, Paradox, Guru, Guru Mighty, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:57 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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lpc300 wrote:
As an experiment, I drilled 3 balls, all of which are very similar, identically. Got very different reactions and I'm not sure why. Here are the three balls chosen with their specs. All are 15 lbs:

Motive Jackal Ghost RG/Diff: 2.47/.54
DV8 Pitbull Bite RG/Diff: 2.48/.055
DV8 Pitbull Growl RG/Diff: 2.48/.055

The surface on all three balls was made identical: 360/1000. The drilling was also identical on all three: 55/6/30. All 3 were thrown on a THS, by the same bowler. Knowing this house shot, my expectation was that all three would give moderate length and then give a long very strong backend reaction. That's exactly what happened... with the Jackal Ghost. Both of the DV8 balls reacted similarly. They went quite a bit longer than the Jackal and when they hooked, they hooked very weakly. Moving inside a bit, the Jackal went longer and was a bit sharper in the backend. The two DV8 balls went nearly completely straight, barely hooking at all.

The difference in reactions really surprised me considering the similarity between the 3 balls and how they were drilled and the surface was prepared identically. As an additional experiment, I drilled a DV8 Grudge Hybrid (2.48/.56) identically. It reacted very similarly to the Jackal (a little longer and a little sharper backend).

Any thoughts on why the 2 Pitbulls reacted so differently from the Jackal?

What is your PAP and release specs?

You did not take into consideration the Int. Diff(mass Bias)
The Pitbulls are much more Asymmetrical than the Ghost, they will roll forward sooner, shorter hook zone, less hook.
The layouts did not produce the same spin times. The way I see it the only way you can really compare coverstrength is to have it on the same exact core or at least core/drilling with similar spin times.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:54 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Different cover formulations... Occam's Razor.. the simplest solution is usually the correct one.


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 Post subject: Re: 3 Similar Balls Drilled the Same, React Differently
 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:16 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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It would have been even more interesting had you drilled three of the exact same bowling balls. Chances are, you would have still experienced different performance levels between the three. Kind of like buying three buckets of the same paint over a period of time. This phenomenon was more prevalent in the days of plastic.

The ball that comes to mind is the Columbia Yellow Dot. Different release dates would contain a visible difference in dye lots. Subsequently, performance levels changed also.

Those same basic characteristics are inherent in today's product.


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