The core hitting the pocket...

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44boyd
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Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by 44boyd »

Post your speed and I’m sure Eric could give you a starting point.
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Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by MWhite »

vicsmyth wrote:
I am under the assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) that the two go hand in hand. My best shots I can see the PAP migrate and the ball rev up. I'm 225 revs, 20* tilt off the hand, 300 revs, 5-10* at the pocket. Shots that leave flat 10's, although the ball still hooks, it fails to "tip over" and hits the pocket at the same 225 revs and 20* tilt. My interest in layouts (and static weights) is to help my ball tip over.
First off I doubt your ball has only 300 revs as it rolls into the pins. That would imply it's rolling at less than 8 mph.

Next time you throw a ball that fails to "tip over", and stays at 225 revs, check the oil rings on the ball when it comes back. You will most likely see that the PAP did migrate (multiple oil rings)

That will be proof that "the two things" do not go hand in hand.

Also, when a ball doesn't tip over, and stays at the same rev rate, thats more likely WHERE you threw the ball, not HOW you threw it. On a house condition there usually a ton of oil inside 2nd arrow. if your ball stays in that much oil it will skid into the pins with next to no angle of entry.
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Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by vicsmyth »

MWhite wrote:First off I doubt your ball has only 300 revs as it rolls into the pins. That would imply it's rolling at less than 8 mph.
Do you think Ryan Ciminelli's ball is hitting the pocket at 12 mph, or 700 revs?

At one house I bowl the monitor reports 13.5 mph, at another house 11.5 mph. Timing the ball from when it hits the lane, to when it hits the head pin, allowing for a 2 foot loft, the elapsed time on the video shows an average speed of 16 mph. The ball I threw had a piece of tape from the NAP to above my fingers crossing the track. Recording the the thumps and measuring on audio software showed 225 revs off the hand, for my better shots, 300 entering the pin deck. I know that a ball rolling at 300 revs is only moving at 7.67 mph. And so I wonder if my ball, and Ryan Ciminelli's and most everyone else's is partially skidding at the pin deck. How else could someone like Osku Palermaa leave a flat 10? (Though with their volume of oil, carry down and lane topology could play a big factor.)
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by EricHartwell »

vicsmyth wrote:
I am under the assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) that the two go hand in hand. My best shots I can see the PAP migrate and the ball rev up. I'm 225 revs, 20* tilt off the hand, 300 revs, 5-10* at the pocket. Shots that leave flat 10's, although the ball still hooks, it fails to "tip over" and hits the pocket at the same 225 revs and 20* tilt. My interest in layouts (and static weights) is to help my ball tip over.
You fail to mention anything about Rotation.
Miss your release and add rotation to your benchmark number you get more length and it takes longer for the Rotation to equal tilt. Hit the pocket still trying to hook you get deflection and ringing 10 pins.
Miss your release with less rotation it reads the lane earlier, rotation equals tilt sooner rolls sooner and then you start leaving flat 10 pins.

What ball and layout are you using?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by EricHartwell »

TheJesus wrote:Question : Ok, so if tilt=Axis rotation, so...roll phase, we are told that the ball has the highest % for better pin action, ...because of ....what? Why is this? What are the gyroscopic properties exactly? And does it have less deflection in the roll phase, or does it have less deflection while still hooking? Is deflection accounted for when we talk about "gyroscopic properties" ? Or do we only say it is better to hit the pins in the roll out phase because of the RPMs being at the max? Doesn't also the speed (which is at the lowest when the ball rolls out) play a role here ? (kinetic energy transferred to the pins)?
When the ball hits the pins it slows down really fast. The rpms keep going. Once the ball slows down enough the revs are now higher than rolling speed. The ball is now spinning forward. My best strikes I see the ball still spinning forward in the pit.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by vicsmyth »

EricHartwell wrote:What ball and layout are you using?
With my 4-1/2 x 1/2up PAP, most of my balls, Hyroad/2000 abr pad, Hyper Cell Fused/3000 abr pad are current favorites. Hyper Cell Skid and Wreck'Em, both polished (and not carrying this season) I used a control layout, pin in the ring or just to the right of the ring, cg kicked out. Roughly 45-55 x 3.5-4 x 45 -55. The typical pin above the ring cg out I have never had success with, and I have recently tried some pin under which seem to rev up for me better. On a THS I typically play 9 at arrows to 6-7 at break point, maybe move to 12-13 to 7-8 later. Sometimes with a weaker ball like the Wreck'Em I can play straight up 6-7. These layouts work fine for me when the back ends are clean, when there is carrydown I generally play 10-11 to 6-7 1 mph slower with more side roll to help cut through the carry down at a steeper angle.

Problem I have is with carrydown, getting the ball to tip over without hooking prematurely midlane when I throw it slower with more axis rotation.

And when I come straight up the ball, my favorite layout burns out on me.
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by EricHartwell »

vicsmyth wrote:
With my 4-1/2 x 1/2up PAP, most of my balls, Hyroad/2000 abr pad, Hyper Cell Fused/3000 abr pad are current favorites. Hyper Cell Skid and Wreck'Em, both polished (and not carrying this season) I used a control layout, pin in the ring or just to the right of the ring, cg kicked out. Roughly 45-55 x 3.5-4 x 45 -55. The typical pin above the ring cg out I have never had success with, and I have recently tried some pin under which seem to rev up for me better. On a THS I typically play 9 at arrows to 6-7 at break point, maybe move to 12-13 to 7-8 later. Sometimes with a weaker ball like the Wreck'Em I can play straight up 6-7. These layouts work fine for me when the back ends are clean, when there is carrydown I generally play 10-11 to 6-7 1 mph slower with more side roll to help cut through the carry down at a steeper angle.

Problem I have is with carrydown, getting the ball to tip over without hooking prematurely midlane when I throw it slower with more axis rotation.

And when I come straight up the ball, my favorite layout burns out on me.
You are speed dominant then you add rotation, side roll as you call it, this makes it harder for you to get the ball to read the lane. Then you add carrydown and you are trying to go sideways through it. balls don't hook in the oil. You need to lower your rotation to Roll through the carrydown. Otherwise you need to swing the ball around the carrydown. Speed dominance really doesn't allow this.

Use more surface 1000 grit or less to negate the effects of carrydown.

Are you diligent about keeping the dull surfaces 2000 and 3000 grit fresh on the balls?
If you have bowled more than 3 sets on a ball then the surface is worn to a much higher grit.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: The core hitting the pocket...

Post by vicsmyth »

EricHartwell wrote:You are speed dominant then you add rotation, side roll as you call it, this makes it harder for you to get the ball to read the lane. Then you add carrydown and you are trying to go sideways through it. balls don't hook in the oil. You need to lower your rotation to Roll through the carrydown. Otherwise you need to swing the ball around the carrydown. Speed dominance really doesn't allow this.

Use more surface 1000 grit or less to negate the effects of carrydown.

Are you diligent about keeping the dull surfaces 2000 and 3000 grit fresh on the balls?
If you have bowled more than 3 sets on a ball then the surface is worn to a much higher grit.
I clean the balls on a spinner as soon as I get home and scuff them the day before I use them.

My Hyroad I was guessing at the layout, measuring it yesterday: VLS 3 x 4-1/2 x 1-3/4, Dual angle 35* x 3 x 35* give or take 5* The ball is USBC legal.

I shot 697 with this ball a week ago during league, 766 yesterday. Both weeks the third game I used a little loft on the right lane, slow rolled it with more side roll on the left lane that didn't finish as well.

I think I'm okay as long as they lanes aren't wonky. When they're wonky and my 4 board shot goes away I don't think any layout is going to help.

But I do thank-you for your responses. I always appreciate feedback that gives me new ideas to try.
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