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 Post subject: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:16 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I spent months pouring over the resources of this site back in early 2012. I drilled four balls that summer using what I learned, and was successful with 3 (I think the other was poor ball choice, not layout). So I thought I had a pretty good handle when I had a Marvel S drilled the following summer. I was shooting for a Midlane style layout, which came out to 45 x 4.5 x 30. What I failed to grasp at the time was that symmetrics are extremely different from asymmetrics when it comes to drill angle. The ball in question has only a p2 hole drilled 3/4 x 2 1/4. If I'm correct in my current thinking what I have is actually closer to a Long And Strong layout, because of the psa being in or around the thumb.

This normally wouldn't be a problem, but having moved to the Denver area, the shot I have been bowling has been giving me a lot over/under. I move 1/1 left after a couple of 4 pins and start living light 10s. Im still trying to get my game back, so physical changes aren't a good idea atm. I can't change balls as everything but the Marvel S and a Tropical Storm cracked. The Tropical storm is drilled long and strong as well I believe, but on purpose. I did not layout that ball, but it appears to have a similar val angle to the MS. I just wanted a TS with a good layout for burnt house patterns.

As I see it I have three options. I shall list them in terms of expense.

Buy a new ball
Plug the current p2 and drill a p4
Change surface (Lower than current?)

Buying a new ball would have to wait a few months, maybe more. Drilling a new p4 would only be temporary with the new rule coming. Granted it will buy me enough time to get a new ball. I believe we have 2 years? All of this is good, but Surface seems quickest and cheapest, I'm just not quite sure how to proceed. The ball is currently OOB + ~30 games. Definitely not matte anymore imo.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:22 am Post Number: #2 Post
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TexasThunder wrote:
What I failed to grasp at the time was that symmetrics are extremely different from asymmetrics when it comes to drill angle.


Not just drill angle, but Pin to PAP is handled differently, nearly opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:10 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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TexasThunder wrote:
As I see it I have three options. I shall list them in terms of expense.

Buy a new ball
Plug the current p2 and drill a p4
Change surface (Lower than current?)

Buying a new ball would have to wait a few months, maybe more. Drilling a new p4 would only be temporary with the new rule coming. Granted it will buy me enough time to get a new ball. I believe we have 2 years? All of this is good, but Surface seems quickest and cheapest, I'm just not quite sure how to proceed. The ball is currently OOB + ~30 games. Definitely not matte anymore imo.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Even with a "proper" layout surface of the bowling ball is still the key to match up to the bowling conditions. Dull/matte surfaces do not last very long. I refresh the surface on my dull equipment between 6 and 9 games.

A P4 balance hole on a Symmetrical ball is the Thumb hole. I would suggest using a balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL to lower the drilling angle on your Marvel S. This is assuming that the static weight will allow for it to remain compliant to the existing rules with only 1 oz of leeway.
With such a small P2 hole I am guessing it was necessary to make the static weight legal.
This will give you until August 2020 to save for a new ball. You will still need to adjust the surface to fine tune your reaction.

You are correct that a surface change will be the cheapest and it will be the most effective way to get a strong midlane read. I would do this first.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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the one who taught us that does no longer believe that


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 Post subject: Re: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:21 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Not just drill angle, but Pin to PAP is handled differently, nearly opposite.


So I've gathered from the BCU, Wiki, and some other posts. Sym. retain tilt and rotation at longer distances where as Asym lose tilt and rotation. What I take this to mean is if you need a ball to react quicker you use longer Asym distances and shorter Sym distances, and vise versa. If I have misinterpreted this please correct me.

EricHartwell wrote:
Even with a "proper" layout surface of the bowling ball is still the key to match up to the bowling conditions. Dull/matte surfaces do not last very long. I refresh the surface on my dull equipment between 6 and 9 games.

A P4 balance hole on a Symmetrical ball is the Thumb hole. I would suggest using a balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL to lower the drilling angle on your Marvel S. This is assuming that the static weight will allow for it to remain compliant to the existing rules with only 1 oz of leeway.
With such a small P2 hole I am guessing it was necessary to make the static weight legal.
This will give you until August 2020 to save for a new ball. You will still need to adjust the surface to fine tune your reaction.

You are correct that a surface change will be the cheapest and it will be the most effective way to get a strong midlane read. I would do this first.


Thank you for the informative reply. The weight hole in questions I do not believe was needed to maintain legality. The cg is about 1 1/8 form the CL and 1/2 under the ML. I had it drilled to get the ball as close to 0/0 as possible. I have had issues with scales differing greatly, so I make sure my balls are without a doubt legal. Its not like I actually need side weight to make my ball flip on the backend, as my former coach used to believe.

As for surface: What finish would you recommend starting with? 1000/3000, 1000/2000, 500/2000?

gunso wrote:
the one who taught us that does no longer believe that


Gunso, could you clarify what you are saying. Who taught who what? Why do they no longer believe it?


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 Post subject: Re: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:36 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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TexasThunder wrote:
As for surface: What finish would you recommend starting with? 1000/3000, 1000/2000, 500/2000?

Original surface for the Marvel S is 3000 grit. Not knowing your bowling style/release specs I would say definitely a duller surface than original as a starting point. I like a straight 2000 grit as a starting point then adjust as necessary.
TexasThunder wrote:
Gunso, could you clarify what you are saying. Who taught who what? Why do they no longer believe it?

Mo Pinel is who gunso is speaking of. He has recently made some recommendations on his facebook that seem to contradict the guidelines we have been using for pin to PAP distances.
I started a post to try and get some discussion going on the topic ...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13868

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Marvel S Mistake
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:38 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Original surface for the Marvel S is 3000 grit. Not knowing your bowling style/release specs I would say definitely a duller surface than original as a starting point. I like a straight 2000 grit as a starting point then adjust as necessary.


Rookie mistake on my part. I haven't had it checked since I came back, but I will share what I remember from when I had it checked 6 years ago. These are what I have been operating with:

PAP: 5" over 3/4" up
Axis tilt: 10*
Axis Rotation: 40*
Off Hand ball speed: 16 mph
Rev Rate: 285

The only two I'm not confident in at the moment are ball speed and rev rate. Not long after those specs were taken my coach fixed something in my timing and my swing and release got much more relaxed and my monitor speed hit 16.5 but I was also playing deeper which I believe means I also had a corresponding increase in rev rate and maybe a slight increase in base rotation. I don't think I'm anywhere close to that relaxed state anymore. But that's to be expected when, not long after you achieve it, you lose all of the strength you built up due to illness, and I am unlikely to get it back if the docs can't do better than stable but still suffering symptoms. My speed off the monitor atm is around 14-14.5 on a good shot.


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