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 Post subject: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:25 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hey, Folks

I've bowled recreationally for a number of years, always one handed with a pretty traditional release. Since I'm only bowling on house shots, I always kept a pearl and a semi-strong asym in the bag and flattened my hand out for spares. Currently, the pearl is a rather old Hammer Chalk and the semi-strong asym is a Storm Code Red. About a month ago I was watching a PBA telecast and noticed some similarities between two handed bowling and the golf swing. As a high level tournament golfer, I decided to give two handing a whirl and have been extremely satisfied with the results. The movement and release is much more natural for me and I'm getting a much more consistent ball reaction.

However, I am definitely in need of a bit of an equipment overhaul. Surprisingly the Storm Code Red still works pretty well, I hit it with enough 1000 grit to smooth out the asym reaction and I quite like the ball. The issue is that, in order to use the Code Red, I have to play extremely deep, I can pretty much keep migrating left until I hit the gutter cap but once I'm out of oil I'm pretty much dead to rights. Meanwhile, the Hammer Chalk, which I figured would be an excellent option given the weaker overall profile, symmetric core, and pearl cover is absolutely impossible to control. The ball scoots through the heads but makes such a violent reaction on the backend that I'm almost forced to play deeper than with the Code Red.

So, I'm looking for some suggestions on possible ball options. I don't see any reason not to stick with the Code Red but I certainly need some weaker equipment. I've been thinking urethane would be a nice option, especially because I need something for spares. I'm not sure which urethane is best for me though. I'd like to try to have a weaker reactive piece as well though. Ideally something I could play a bit straighter with but that could give me a bit more angle than I'd see with urethane.

Thanks!!


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:29 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Yeees! Somebody gets it! It’s very similar to golf!

Ok, don’t let anyone tell you not to bowl two handed.

What is your speed? Could you please post videos in the certified coaching section? Please follow guidelines.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:27 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I'd suggest picking up a symmetric with a fairly strong coverstock in the range of a daredevil trick, Idol, Hyroad nano, Drive, GB3, x2. For me they really smooth out the wet dry. You probably need to let them lane shine or wet sand them 4000 to be highly effective on house shots. GB2, torrent or iq tour might be good option as well but for me they are quite a lot more angular then the ones above and since you like the code red when moving in I'd suggest these as a bigger difference in how quickly they respond to friction.

I'd also suggest a symmetric urethane option to start with. On a house shot I like the purple hammer the best or the crow. but for the true urethane look any of the low end urethane options, pitch black, black hammer, boo yah, true motion.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:01 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Depending on your style, I would emulate what the person you compare to. If you’re like Simonsen, middle reactive might be usable like Gunso suggested. But definitely a urethane for sure if you’re not as comfortable moving in. Plastic for spares, y’all seem to get them to hook too.

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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:01 am Post Number: #5 Post
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We need more information about the bowler’s release to recommend balls guys. Not all two handers are 18 mph off the hand with 500+rpms. Some, mostly beginners, still don’t have the speed. Many are very low tilt, some even have negative tilt, few have above 10 degrees. As for axis rotation there is a lot of variation between new two handers. It would be very irresponsible to recommend balls without knowing the OP’s specs. I do agree on the plastic for spares though.

Post your release specs so you can get my recommendations. I am a certified coach and do coach two handers.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:05 am Post Number: #6 Post
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As for the golf swing analogy, you are on the right path. Coach Del Warren who has coached many PBA and college two handers, he made the recommendation to my 13 yr old daughter and to me that we should go to the driving range and work on our golf swing to cross train for two handed bowling.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:34 am Post Number: #7 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
We need more information about the bowler’s release to recommend balls guys. Not all two handers are 18 mph off the hand with 500+rpms. Some, mostly beginners, still don’t have the speed. Many are very low tilt, some even have negative tilt, few have above 10 degrees. As for axis rotation there is a lot of variation between new two handers. It would be very irresponsible to recommend balls without knowing the OP’s specs. I do agree on the plastic for spares though.

Post your release specs so you can get my recommendations. I am a certified coach and do coach two handers.


Of course you can recommend balls without knowing his exact specs. He describes his ball motion with each bowling ball, he describes what bowling balls he is throwing and at what surface. He describes where on the lane he is playing. He describes what he wants that is different than his current bowling balls. I think it is farily easy throwing a good suggestion his way on what bowling balls I'd recommend for what he is asking for.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:43 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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RobPina1991 wrote:
Hey, Folks

I've bowled recreationally for a number of years, always one handed with a pretty traditional release. Since I'm only bowling on house shots, I always kept a pearl and a semi-strong asym in the bag and flattened my hand out for spares. Currently, the pearl is a rather old Hammer Chalk and the semi-strong asym is a Storm Code Red. About a month ago I was watching a PBA telecast and noticed some similarities between two handed bowling and the golf swing. As a high level tournament golfer, I decided to give two handing a whirl and have been extremely satisfied with the results. The movement and release is much more natural for me and I'm getting a much more consistent ball reaction.

However, I am definitely in need of a bit of an equipment overhaul. Surprisingly the Storm Code Red still works pretty well, I hit it with enough 1000 grit to smooth out the asym reaction and I quite like the ball. The issue is that, in order to use the Code Red, I have to play extremely deep, I can pretty much keep migrating left until I hit the gutter cap but once I'm out of oil I'm pretty much dead to rights. Meanwhile, the Hammer Chalk, which I figured would be an excellent option given the weaker overall profile, symmetric core, and pearl cover is absolutely impossible to control. The ball scoots through the heads but makes such a violent reaction on the backend that I'm almost forced to play deeper than with the Code Red.

So, I'm looking for some suggestions on possible ball options. I don't see any reason not to stick with the Code Red but I certainly need some weaker equipment. I've been thinking urethane would be a nice option, especially because I need something for spares. I'm not sure which urethane is best for me though. I'd like to try to have a weaker reactive piece as well though. Ideally something I could play a bit straighter with but that could give me a bit more angle than I'd see with urethane.

Thanks!!

You could re-finish a Radical Cyclops (don't use skip a grit) and go through grits as close together as possible. for example what I did: 1000/1500/2000/neat pad A/ 3000/ neat T/ 4000/ 4000 worn out I am not sure I used correct sequence because I used a lot of worn out pads. I have enjoyed a Tropical Breeze Pearl also. I have heard the tropical solid is not as jumpy (but haven't tried it). The pearl skids good but can be jumpy. I refinished a Tank Rampage same as the Cyclops and got a smooth reaction, but does not always carry. I also refinished a Shadow Ops, but it still hooks a bunch. Try to get your pin 3/4" to 1" from your PAP in a flare safe location to kill the flare can also get it down the lane for you.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:54 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
You could re-finish a Radical Cyclops (don't use skip a grit) and go through grits as close together as possible. for example what I did: 1000/1500/2000/neat pad A/ 3000/ neat T/ 4000/ 4000 worn out I am not sure I used correct sequence because I used a lot of worn out pads. I have enjoyed a Tropical Breeze Pearl also. I have heard the tropical solid is not as jumpy (but haven't tried it). The pearl skids good but can be jumpy. I refinished a Tank Rampage same as the Cyclops and got a smooth reaction, but does not always carry. I also refinished a Shadow Ops, but it still hooks a bunch. Try to get your pin 3/4" to 1" from your PAP in a flare safe location to kill the flare can also get it down the lane for you.


For a 3-5 ball arsenal, especially to start with since your game will likely evolve a lot the next year, I would keep the "special layouts" to a minimun and keep them pretty basic in the 4-5 inch pin to pap range.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:12 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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gunso wrote:
For a 3-5 ball arsenal, especially to start with since your game will likely evolve a lot the next year, I would keep the "special layouts" to a minimun and keep them pretty basic in the 4-5 inch pin to pap range.

Here is what Mo has to say (Taken from Radical drill sheets: http://radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/a-r ... l-patterns):
"Most no-thumb bowlers are higher rev players so there will be much less need for strong layouts, except in rare circumstances. We recommend two options with pin placements. The first option places the pin to PAP distance between 3-3/4” to 5-1/4”, and it produces more track flare, more hook, and stronger ball motion. The second option places the pin to PAP distance between 3/4” to 2-1/2”, and it will result in less track flare, less hook, and much more controllable ball motion. The low flare layouts will allow the high rev 2-handed bowlers to play a much more direct line and control the breakpoint."

The request was for ball recommendations to cut down on hook and snap.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:20 am Post Number: #11 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Here is what Mo has to say (Taken from Radical drill sheets: http://radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/a-r ... l-patterns):
"Most no-thumb bowlers are higher rev players so there will be much less need for strong layouts, except in rare circumstances. We recommend two options with pin placements. The first option places the pin to PAP distance between 3-3/4” to 5-1/4”, and it produces more track flare, more hook, and stronger ball motion. The second option places the pin to PAP distance between 3/4” to 2-1/2”, and it will result in less track flare, less hook, and much more controllable ball motion. The low flare layouts will allow the high rev 2-handed bowlers to play a much more direct line and control the breakpoint."

The request was for ball recommendations to cut down on hook and snap.


I've tried these layouts and I wasn't a fan of the ball motion and they got way to condition specific. Granted I don't bowl on THS but I'm not bowling only on sport compliant patterns either. There are also a lot of people in the industry who don't agree on Mo's logic for those layouts.

I am not discouraging anybody from trying different things, god knows I love a good experiment but not everybody has the disposable income to experiment to much. I am just suggesting that for a 3-5 ball arsenal (rather few) for someone who recently started throwing 2 haned, that you'd stick to something relativeley safe and let the bowling balls be the difference since his pap location is very likely going to vary from shot to shot to begin with and will probably not be the same in a year. At least that is my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:48 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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gunso wrote:

I've tried these layouts and I wasn't a fan of the ball motion and they got way to condition specific. Granted I don't bowl on THS but I'm not bowling only on sport compliant patterns either. There are also a lot of people in the industry who don't agree on Mo's logic for those layouts.

I am not discouraging anybody from trying different things, god knows I love a good experiment but not everybody has the disposable income to experiment to much. I am just suggesting that for a 3-5 ball arsenal (rather few) for someone who recently started throwing 2 haned, that you'd stick to something relativeley safe and let the bowling balls be the difference since his pap location is very likely going to vary from shot to shot to begin with and will probably not be the same in a year. At least that is my experience.
Have 1 son who does not like no flair. 1 son who loves it. Definitely does what Mo says for them
. Try one of each before you decide to do a whole arsenal one way or the other. That is what I understood you to say, but I could have not understood correctly. Good idea about PAP changing. too close to PAP could hit fingers if you changed PAP.


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 Post subject: Re: New Two Hander -- Need Help Building an Arsenal
 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:54 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Ok I’ll give a general recommendation:

1) 1 plastic spare ball

2) 1 medium reactive that goes long, Hammer Rebel comes to mind. Drill it pin above bridge, no balance hole. Get a short pin to cg, keep cg close to RF.

3) Drill both 3/8, 3/8 laterals, 1.25” reverse both fingers, conventional without inserts, keep bridge at 3/8, bevel for conventional

4) Don’t get any more balls

5) Find a coach who has had success coaching two handers

6) Practice, practice, practice.

7) When your release specs become effective and consistent (good speed, average rotation, some tilt would be good), post your specs and you will get an accurate arsenal recommendation.

When learning you most likely will not need an arsenal.


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