BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

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jobowl
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BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 9th, 2017, 4:11 pm

JUST DID A SESSION ON THE BOWLERS ID THAT MY PSO JUST GOT...MY STATS ARE AS FOLLOWS

REV RATE....252
BALL SPEED.....17.5
AXIS ROTATION.....85 DEGREES
AXIS TILT.....7.6
PAP.....5 INCHES OVER AND 1 1/16

AFTER TALKING TO MY PSO HE SAYS SLIGHTLY SPEED DOMINANT WITH HIGH ROTATION AND LOW TILT....LOWER TOTALS AND DRILLING ANGLES WERE SUGGESTED.....ANY HELP WITH AN ARSENAL INCUDING SPORT SHOT LAYOUTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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EricHartwell
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by EricHartwell » October 9th, 2017, 9:51 pm

jobowl wrote:JUST DID A SESSION ON THE BOWLERS ID THAT MY PSO JUST GOT...MY STATS ARE AS FOLLOWS

REV RATE....252
BALL SPEED.....17.5
AXIS ROTATION.....85 DEGREES
AXIS TILT.....7.6
PAP.....5 INCHES OVER AND 1 1/16

AFTER TALKING TO MY PSO HE SAYS SLIGHTLY SPEED DOMINANT WITH HIGH ROTATION AND LOW TILT....LOWER TOTALS AND DRILLING ANGLES WERE SUGGESTED.....ANY HELP WITH AN ARSENAL INCUDING SPORT SHOT LAYOUTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED
Bowler ID is taken from a non-flaring ball. When laying out a High Flaring ball and layout I suggest finding your PAP on a High flaring ball and use that for High Flare set-ups.

A good idea to add your specs to your signature making for easier reference in the future.

Benchmark totals not necessarily lower. Speed to Revs yes slightly speed dominant, but once you factor in low tilt it raises the totals, then factor in the high rotation and I would consider you Matched. With all that said Benchmark total 95*, Ratio 1.75:1

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............... 50-4-25
Midlane ........................ 40-4-35
Benchmark .................. 60-3.75-35
Long and Strong ........... 80-3.5-35
Control ........................ 60-3.25-55
low flare ...................... 80-2.25-35

Symmetrical Layouts... drilling angles to Cg
Totally Strong ............... Double Thumb Layout
Midlane ....................... 50-4-35 bal hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark .................. 75-4-30
Long and Strong ........... 95-3.5-40 Motion Hole
Control ........................ 65-4.25-50 bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL adjust to pin in the Ring finger
low flare ...................... 75-5-30

Asymmetrical Sport layouts
Short Sport ....... 30-4.5-55 Adjust to Pin the the Ring finger
Med Sport ......... 30-5-45 P3
Long Sport ........ 35-5.25-35 P3
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jobowl
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 10th, 2017, 11:56 am

Just to let you know... That my PSO also put a hole in an existing ball I had in the same location... The only real change was the rev rate.... With their ball it was around 225...with my ball it was 254....the PAP only changed about 1/16 in both directions.... Also since I have a high axis rotation shouldn't asymmetrical balls be closer to 5 inches to burn off some of the axis rotation and why is the symmetric benchmark total so high... Thanks again.... Also wonder is the ratio should be lower
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by bfweld » October 11th, 2017, 12:20 am

jobowl wrote:Just to let you know... That my PSO also put a hole in an existing ball I had in the same location... The only real change was the rev rate.... With their ball it was around 225...with my ball it was 254....the PAP only changed about 1/16 in both directions.... Also since I have a high axis rotation shouldn't asymmetrical balls be closer to 5 inches to burn off some of the axis rotation and why is the symmetric benchmark total so high... Thanks again.... Also wonder is the ratio should be lower
Moving the pin-pap distance out to around 5" or further on asym's is putting you in a "tradeoff"...the longer pin-pap isn't good for your lower tilt as it will make the ball roll sooner. You are better off using surface to determine how early the ball starts to move for you since the layout is a "set" factor in your reaction.

I believe Eric made a typo there...that should be 65x4x30 for your sym benchmark.
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
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70* rotation

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by EricHartwell » October 11th, 2017, 1:20 am

bfweld wrote: Moving the pin-pap distance out to around 5" or further on asym's is putting you in a "tradeoff"...the longer pin-pap isn't good for your lower tilt as it will make the ball roll sooner. You are better off using surface to determine how early the ball starts to move for you since the layout is a "set" factor in your reaction.

I believe Eric made a typo there...that should be 65x4x30 for your sym benchmark.
No typo, see my disclaimer
EricHartwell wrote:Symmetrical Layouts... drilling angles to Cg
No balance hole necessary if the Cg is closer to the grip center.

bfweld is right about your low tilt being the determining factor when I chose the pin to PAP's.
Use surface to burn off your rotation.
Unless you like that skid snap reaction.

I gave layouts for a "Basic" arsenal. Custom layouts for specific reactions need to take into account the ball to be drilled and lane condition for which it will be used on.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jobowl
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 11th, 2017, 10:34 pm

I'm a little confused ...I have always been told that with my very high axis rotation to keep my drilling angles lower ...had balls drilled with as low as 35 degrees on the drill angle....I guess that having a little more drill angle or retaining energy actually helps me ...also I see that all your VAL angles will keep the pin either on level or above my fingers is that the same reason... so I guess that more skid /snap is better...
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by MegaMav » October 12th, 2017, 12:17 am

jobowl wrote:I'm a little confused ...I have always been told that with my very high axis rotation to keep my drilling angles lower ...had balls drilled with as low as 35 degrees on the drill angle....I guess that having a little more drill angle or retaining energy actually helps me ...also I see that all your VAL angles will keep the pin either on level or above my fingers is that the same reason... so I guess that more skid /snap is better...
I think you are confused.
You've mixed up drill angles with angle ratios.
Lower angle ratios for less volatile reactions.
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by elgavachon » October 12th, 2017, 8:18 am

jobowl wrote:I'm a little confused ...I have always been told that with my very high axis rotation to keep my drilling angles lower ...had balls drilled with as low as 35 degrees on the drill angle....I guess that having a little more drill angle or retaining energy actually helps me ...also I see that all your VAL angles will keep the pin either on level or above my fingers is that the same reason... so I guess that more skid /snap is better...
Here is the chart I made after studying as many of Mo's recommendations as possible at the time:
Decrease_low_tilt_on_Athery%27s_chart.pdf
You will notice that I had a 7.5* tilt bowler with high rotation and speed dominant pegged at 1.5:1 ratio for a benchmark.

What I would tell you is that if that is too much skid/snap for you, lower the ratios. That was just supposed to be a middle of the road/ middle reaction/ type layout for you to adjust layouts from. Most bowlers were very pleased with Mo's recommendations, but you might be the exception.
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 12th, 2017, 7:10 pm

Now I understand.... Thanks for the advice.... I have at least 2 balls that are very close to your benchmark symmetrical drilling they are both 55 x 3 1/2 x 35 with xtra hole in them... Have had some success with these drillings.... Have a No Rules drilled 55 x 3 3/4 x 35 loose close to your benchmark also.... Going to drill a Sure lock... PSO suggested 45 x 4 1/2 x25 to compliment the No Rules... Going to get a Code Red and a Show Off... Any suggestions... Also going to plug a DareDevil Trick that has a 45 x 5 x75 drilling on it.... Any ideas?
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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EricHartwell
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by EricHartwell » October 12th, 2017, 11:38 pm

jobowl wrote:Now I understand.... Thanks for the advice.... I have at least 2 balls that are very close to your benchmark symmetrical drilling they are both 55 x 3 1/2 x 35 with xtra hole in them... Have had some success with these drillings.... Have a No Rules drilled 55 x 3 3/4 x 35 loose close to your benchmark also.... Going to drill a Sure lock... PSO suggested 45 x 4 1/2 x25 to compliment the No Rules... Going to get a Code Red and a Show Off... Any suggestions... Also going to plug a DareDevil Trick that has a 45 x 5 x75 drilling on it.... Any ideas?
Code Red ...............Long and Strong..... 80-3.5-35
Show Off .................Control ............... 65-4.25-50 bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL adjust to pin in the Ring
DareDevil Trick ......... low flare ............ 75-5-30

Just curious, why are you going to redrill the DareDevil Trick?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by Nsane » October 13th, 2017, 12:18 pm

jobowl wrote:JUST DID A SESSION ON THE BOWLERS ID THAT MY PSO JUST GOT...MY STATS ARE AS FOLLOWS

REV RATE....252
BALL SPEED.....17.5
AXIS ROTATION.....85 DEGREES
AXIS TILT.....7.6
PAP.....5 INCHES OVER AND 1 1/16

AFTER TALKING TO MY PSO HE SAYS SLIGHTLY SPEED DOMINANT WITH HIGH ROTATION AND LOW TILT....LOWER TOTALS AND DRILLING ANGLES WERE SUGGESTED.....ANY HELP WITH AN ARSENAL INCUDING SPORT SHOT LAYOUTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED
Bowlers ID sucks!!!!
I had a session with it and all the results where miles off my true specs. I ran in confusion and Posted it here. Mo said I should stay cool and just forget the results and recheck. I did and my old specs where the right ones.
So I recommand!!!!! Befor you change anything check your specs with the usual methods. If you have no Ideas how look in the WIKI there are guides to check your specs!!!!
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jobowl
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 14th, 2017, 2:01 am

Hey Nando I don't know when you did your session but this is the new and improved version of Bowlers ID.... Supposed to be more accurate

Eric the DareDevil Trick was given to me with the layout on it already.... Might just leave it as a control ball I just wanted it to be stronger off the pattern... It is very smooth... Not sure if it is the ball design or the layout.... What are your thoughts any suggestions?
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 14th, 2017, 2:04 am

Sorry I meant NSANE NOT NANDO
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by EricHartwell » October 14th, 2017, 2:30 am

jobowl wrote:Hey Nando I don't know when you did your session but this is the new and improved version of Bowlers ID.... Supposed to be more accurate

Eric the DareDevil Trick was given to me with the layout on it already.... Might just leave it as a control ball I just wanted it to be stronger off the pattern... It is very smooth... Not sure if it is the ball design or the layout.... What are your thoughts any suggestions?
Probably a combination of both.
The layout I suggested is a stronger layout and will still give you a smoother reaction and roll earlier than the existing layout.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » October 28th, 2017, 9:09 pm

Eric I have since plugged and redrilled the DAREDEVIL TRICK talked to my PSO ...we agreed to a control type layout 55x4x45 so its a 1:1.25 ratio layout... ball is stronger than what I had before but still smooth..... also plugged a CODE BLACK and drilled it 70x3 1/2 x35 no hole ...its very long and angular..great when the lanes are burning up and I can get in . just a question I am going to drill a SURELOCK this week and not sure how to drill it ....if I drill it with your suggestion 50x4x25 will it be stronger in the backend or just overall than my benchmark ball ?
ball speed 17.5
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EricHartwell
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by EricHartwell » October 28th, 2017, 11:18 pm

jobowl wrote:Eric I have since plugged and redrilled the DAREDEVIL TRICK talked to my PSO ...we agreed to a control type layout 55x4x45 so its a 1:1.25 ratio layout... ball is stronger than what I had before but still smooth..... also plugged a CODE BLACK and drilled it 70x3 1/2 x35 no hole ...its very long and angular..great when the lanes are burning up and I can get in . just a question I am going to drill a SURELOCK this week and not sure how to drill it ....if I drill it with your suggestion 50x4x25 will it be stronger in the backend or just overall than my benchmark ball ?
50-4-25 is the Totally Strong layout. Stronger is earlier. It will hook earlier and roll earlier.
On most conditions the Benchmark will have more backend motion than the Totally strong.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by JohnP » October 29th, 2017, 6:09 pm

we agreed to a control type layout 55x4x45 so its a 1:1.25 ratio layout
I believe that's a 1.25:1 (actually 1.22) ratio. -- JohnP

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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » December 29th, 2017, 12:44 am

I'm thinking of drilling the new Hot Cell urethane ....any suggestions
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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EricHartwell
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by EricHartwell » December 29th, 2017, 1:09 am

jobowl wrote:I'm thinking of drilling the new Hot Cell urethane ....any suggestions
For what kind of condition do you want the Hot Cell for?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jobowl
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Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS

Post by jobowl » December 29th, 2017, 5:45 am

Looking to use this piece on 35 Ft or shorter sport patterns,,,,i think I can't use it on a THS unless they are really dry ....or polished as a spare ball
ball speed 17.5
rev rate 270
axis tilt 7 degrees
axis rotation 80 degrees
pap 5 over 1 1/16 up

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