wet sanding vs regular

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krava
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wet sanding vs regular

Post by krava » March 13th, 2018, 8:20 am

The proshop guy here (when he was a proshop guy), said when you have a ball on a spinner to take the siaar pad or whatever and wet it first, ring it out a bit and then use it with light pressure on the ball. Concentrate more on the bottom of the ball (which is the middle) when in the spinner and then go up with it and then back down, but more time with it at the bottom then anywhere else.

The question I have is that when I am done, the ball looks shinny a little. Does wet sanding the ball lets say 500, 2000 the same as using a regular pad on it? Can you use a dry pad on the ball with a spinner? Or do you do the wetsanding lets say with the 2000, then take it out and then get a dry 2000 and then hit it a little with that to get it back dull looking a bit again?

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by snick » March 13th, 2018, 8:43 am

Dry sanding will clog the pads pretty quick and heat up the surface.
Factory sanding machines create a more uniform dull finish due to the crossed sanding lines.
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by bowl1820 » March 13th, 2018, 1:47 pm

Wet vs Dry Sanding
wetvsdrysanding.jpg
This ball was sanded with the same grit, left-dry sanded, right-wet sanded.

Wet sanding produces a more sheen like finish, water acts as a lubricant to a point so the cutting isn't as aggressive.

Also wet sanding helps keep the dust and friction heat down, the water also helps reduce buildup of the cuttings in your pad/paper which let's them cut better and last longer.

Wet sanding is pretty much the standard when using a home spinner (or at the shop)

Dry sanding is a bit more aggressive and will give you a duller surface. But you get more friction which generates more heat and dust. Also the pad can load up which can reduce the effectiveness of the cutting.

And yes a option is to wet sand first, then take it off and take a dry pad and hand sand it to give it a duller look.

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Daily maintenance is the key to good coverstock performance. The most important step is to clean the ball thoroughly by hand with a good bowling ball cleaner immediately after each use before the oil can get deep into the coverstock. Preventing deep penetration of the oil into the coverstock is better, easier, and cheaper than trying to remove the oil after it gets deep into the coverstock!
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by pjape » March 13th, 2018, 2:15 pm

I've noticed on Tour, the standard seems to be dry sanding by hand. Last summer I observed Chuck Gardner sanding Walter Ray's ball during warm-ups. I asked him later what grit he was using. He said it was 1,000 and "that's pretty high for Walter Ray." Obviously, a Tour Rep can't take a players ball, run to the truck, and put it on the sander. Now, I would assume that the players and reps do have access to a spinner, but they never know until they start bowling if they need a quick adjustment, up or down, to combat the lane conditions at that moment, thus the need for hand sanding.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by ballspoint » March 13th, 2018, 6:45 pm

I wet sand by hand in the sink and it comes out dull. I have read a report when the balls have been scanned after, to get the same or close as grit been using to same on ball is to dry sand, but lighlty. So if dry sand lighlty, with a 2k grit, that will show after scanned to be just over, most spinners will give hundreds if not a thousands or so over grit when scanned after.
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by krava » March 20th, 2018, 2:32 am

I hit a ebonite gamebreaker 3 with a 500 pad for 30 seconds on both sides, then hit it with a 2000 pad for 15 seconds on each side. I took it to Dallas today and got the ball tested. The RA (which is the 500 cutting into the ball, wasn't very good but acceptable). I probably didn't put enough pressure on the pad into the ball and was babying it or the pad was used too much. The ball showed up 4600 gritt on the machine which is way off from the 2000. the guy recommended maybe hitting it with wetsand 360 then hitting it with 1000 wet sand and then maybe 2000 gritt by hand.

I am not sure how different the ball will roll at 4600 over 2000 but that is pretty far off I think. I also learned how to polish the ball. You put polish on a terry cloth (not a microfiber), like a pea size or a little bigger. Then use the spinner and put pressure on the ball until you generate some heat. You do this to 4-6 sides of the ball. After you do the pressure on one side. you can take another towl and dampen it a little and then use the spinner with the little tad of water on the towel for a quick hit.

To use compound, He said don't use the spinner, do it by hand. You do the same basic way as you do the polish but don't generate heat. 4 sides of it and swirrel it around clickwise motion. He hit the ridiculous with 500 gritt and then used the royal compound.

I haven't used either of the balls yet but hopefully they work out. I had the timeless polished up so it will go further down then the hy-road.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » March 27th, 2018, 11:29 am

Actually, from an experiment made over at BTM , dry sanding was FAR better than wet sanding, and LIGHT presure was FAR better than HIGH pressure. Also, the pad number cannot achieve the "on the label" grit, but only higher ones. And if it isn't new, even higher than that.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by pjape » March 27th, 2018, 2:24 pm

TheJesus wrote:Actually, from an experiment made over at BTM , dry sanding was FAR better than wet sanding, and LIGHT presure was FAR better than HIGH pressure. Also, the pad number cannot achieve the "on the label" grit, but only higher ones. And if it isn't new, even higher than that.
Plus, if I recall correctly, the author only did two sided.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » March 28th, 2018, 9:51 am

pjape wrote:
Plus, if I recall correctly, the author only did two sided.
Indeed.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » March 29th, 2018, 9:31 pm

What i am curious about, is this :

what is the approximate grit on a ball that has been polished with some compound? I suspect it would be quite high. Which then creates the question : why sand a ball to a low grit, ...and then polish it?

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by krava » March 30th, 2018, 3:17 am

my radical ridiculous out of the box and what we did was use 500 gritt to cut it and use royal compound which is a 2,500 gritt compound on it. The question now is how do I clean it and not take the compound off? Can I use that strong Hook It Or Hook again stuff and it won't take the compound off?

I might be wrong, but why take a ball use low gritt and polish it: Polishing it will let it go longer, the lower gritt will be able to see the lane and cut into the lane to start hooking. The polish only lets it go further and that is it. I got my timeless polished etc when I went to dallas las tweek when I got the ridciulous done. Now my timeless goes way way far before it starts to hook. It is extremly shiny. I am not sure what I am going to do with that thing. I might have to take the polish back off. I still have a c300 swerve FX that I can't even use because I don't know what to do with the thing. I hate polished balls, I think you have to be some kind of type of bowler that needs them to use them or have some dry lane condition or something.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by bowl1820 » March 30th, 2018, 3:34 am

krava wrote:my radical ridiculous out of the box and what we did was use 500 gritt to cut it and use royal compound which is a 2,500 gritt compound on it. The question now is how do I clean it and not take the compound off? Can I use that strong Hook It Or Hook again stuff and it won't take the compound off.
Clean it with either one, compounds and polishes are liquid abrasives. They don't leave a coat on the ball like paint that can be stripped off.
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » April 5th, 2018, 12:57 pm

Just bumping this to see if anyone can help me with my question.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by bowl1820 » April 5th, 2018, 1:38 pm

TheJesus wrote:What i am curious about, is this :

what is the approximate grit on a ball that has been polished with some compound?
Unless you have a ball scanner, there's no way to know.

Final grit is going to depend on what the base grit was to start with, what compound was used (Because their not all the same) and how it was applied (By hand, spinner, time, pressure used)

Example:
Storm Step 2 was supposed to take a ball sanded at 320 to 1500 grit. But if you sanded it a 4000 Abralon (1500) first you would have a smoother surface than 1500.
I suspect it would be quite high. Which then creates the question : why sand a ball to a low grit, ...and then polish it?
Its about building the peaks and valleys on the ball surface.
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » April 5th, 2018, 5:03 pm

Thank you for the reply :)
bowl1820 wrote:Final grit is going to depend on what the base grit was to start with, what compound was used (Because their not all the same) and how it was applied (By hand, spinner, time, pressure used)
You seem to imply that base grit determines final grit. For example :

a sanded 500 grit ball, then polished with a 5000 polish agent, would be different than
a sanded 15000 grit ball, then polished with a 5000 polish agent.

But doesn't the polish also fill gaps in the ball and add a substance that makes it shinier? If so, then if enough polish is applied, it shouldn't matter what the grit beneath was, right?

Also, are those factors you mentioned (by hand, spinner, time, pressure), involved in not reaching the advertised grit, or do they also apply, in the sense that you could reach a higher grit than that advertised? For example if we polish a ball more time, or with more pressure, can we ever get a higher polish than what the abrasive can do ? (as steted by the manufacturer).
bowl1820 wrote:Example:
Storm Step 2 was supposed to take a ball sanded at 320 to 1500 grit. But if you sanded it a 4000 Abralon (1500) first you would have a smoother surface than 1500.
The "(1500)" confused me there. I'm not sure i understand. If a ball is 320 and we apply Storm Step 2, it goes 1500....but it was 4000 and we applied Storm Step 2, it would be smoother than 1500? But ...if it was sanded at 4000 it was already smoother. So what would the Storm step 2 actually accomplish?

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by bowl1820 » April 5th, 2018, 10:05 pm

TheJesus wrote:You seem to imply that base grit determines final grit. For example :
Yes, the base grit that's on the ball before you use a compound or polish affects what the final surface actually is.

So yes if you:
sanded a ball to a base grit of 500 grit abralon, then polished it with a 5000 compound. The final surface would be different than the final surface of a ball sanded to 1500 grit first then polished with a 5000 grit compound.
But doesn't the polish also fill gaps in the ball and add a substance that makes it shinier? If so, then if enough polish is applied, it shouldn't matter what the grit beneath was, right?
Most compounds and polishes are just liquid abrasives, they don't put a coating on a ball. Their (for lack of a better term at the moment) are more like a liquid sandpaper.

How they each work depends on the kind of abrasives they use (Which is why they all produce varying results), Like Brunswick Rough Buff used a diminishing abrasive. Which as you used it, the grit would breakdown getting finer and finer and make the surface smoother and smoother the longer you used it.

Note: There are some polishes that contain "Slip agents" which make the ball slide more. Also some older compounds were termed "Fill in glazes" (this was mentioned in a old BTM issue where they reviewed some polisheds) which were supposed to fill in the sanding lines. Such as A.P.P. Reaction Heavy Duty Cleaner (which later became Track Clean'N Sheen, Then Powerhouse Clean'N Sheen)
Also, are those factors you mentioned (by hand, spinner, time, pressure), involved in not reaching the advertised grit, or do they also apply, in the sense that you could reach a higher grit than that advertised? For example if we polish a ball more time, or with more pressure, can we ever get a higher polish than what the abrasive can do ? (as steted by the manufacturer).
They are involved in both, reaching or not reaching a desired finish.

Hand vs spinner affect how consistent the surface is, the way the pressure is applied etc. Time typically the longer you polish the smoother it gets. Use more pressure on a spinner you generate heat that makes compounds flow over the surface and shines them more vs a lighter pressure that just lets them cut.

Sanding and polishing is kind of a art and you do better with experience. Theres no set steps that produce exact results. they just get you close
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » April 6th, 2018, 3:39 pm

Thanks for the reply.
So yes if you:
sanded a ball to a base grit of 500 grit abralon, then polished it with a 5000 compound. The final surface would be different than the final surface of a ball sanded to 1500 grit first then polished with a 5000 grit compound.
But why? Doesn't the 5000 compound eventually make the 500 grit ....5000? If the "peaks" get sanded down enough to reach the "valleys", then what would matter what the initial grit was? I guess it depends on how much time we keep treating the ball?

And what about those "Slip agents" that DO fill gaps. For example i had an old pearl ball, that needed a service. The pro shop guy resurfaced it in a way that it was almost as shiny as it was when new. (which was a lot!). And the ball really works well, even after 10 years and who knows how many games. I assume something went on the surface of the ball, as i doubt it still had a coat of polish from when i bought it.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by bowl1820 » April 6th, 2018, 4:28 pm

TheJesus wrote: But why? Doesn't the 5000 compound eventually make the 500 grit ....5000? If the "peaks" get sanded down enough to reach the "valleys", then what would matter what the initial grit was? I guess it depends on how much time we keep treating the ball?
But why? You answered your question, Time.

Conceivably you could take a ball sanded at 500 grit and take a super fine 5000 grit abrasive and eventually take the ball surface to 5000 grit. But the amount time that would involve would be prohibitive. (To do it in a reasonable amount of time you would have to do the intermediate steps)

Most sanding and polishing steps only last for seconds or maybe a minute for the most part.
And what about those "Slip agents" that DO fill gaps.
Slip agents don't necessarily "fill in gaps", They used things like silicone which block the pores. Polishes with slip agents can be sanded off.
For example i had an old pearl ball, that needed a service. The pro shop guy resurfaced it in a way that it was almost as shiny as it was when new. (which was a lot!). And the ball really works well, even after 10 years and who knows how many games. I assume something went on the surface of the ball, as i doubt it still had a coat of polish from when i bought it.
" I doubt it still had a coat of polish from when i bought it."

As I stated earlier "Polish" is not like a coat of paint, that you put on and can take off.
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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by krava » April 11th, 2018, 10:20 pm

I have learned 2 more things.

#1 the more used the pad is, the more off the gritt (which is known)
#2 The more water used on the pad, the more the gritt it will be off. Use a dab of water instead of soaking it will get a closer reading to the actual gritt if it is a good pad.

More things learned:

The proshop guy at our bowling alley only sanded it 2 sided. I have been doing that for the past few months now. Your suppose to do it 6 sided. I just did my first ball today 6 sided.

I took 2 balls to the proshop in Dallas yesterday, they took them and put them on a resurfacer or something. This thing had 3 pads. He hit it with 500 and then 800 and the RA was good and the Gritt ended out to be 1700 and the ball looks as Dull as it did when I first got it instead of the wet shine look. His pads were used also.

I think the only time you can really use a 3000 or 4000 gritt pad is when you don't put any water on it and use it on your own hand sanding it in practice or something. For example I have a really shiny timeless. I am going to try to use that thing, if it goes too far I am going to hit it with 4000 to take some shine off.

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Re: wet sanding vs regular

Post by TheJesus » September 17th, 2018, 4:16 pm

bowl1820 wrote:But why? You answered your question, Time.
Conceivably you could take a ball sanded at 500 grit and take a super fine 5000 grit abrasive and eventually take the ball surface to 5000 grit. But the amount time that would involve would be prohibitive. (To do it in a reasonable amount of time you would have to do the intermediate steps)
Most sanding and polishing steps only last for seconds or maybe a minute for the most part.
Ok, so what difference will the reaction be between the following treatments of the same ball :
1. 500 to 4000
2. 500 to 1000 to 4000
3. 500 to 1000 to 2000 to 4000

And how BIG of a difference would you say we would see?

Slip agents don't necessarily "fill in gaps", They used things like silicone which block the pores. Polishes with slip agents can be sanded off.
What is the difference between "fill gaps" and "block pores" ?
As I stated earlier "Polish" is not like a coat of paint, that you put on and can take off.
I used the term polish for a lack of a better term. Substitute for "shine" (i am not an English native, sorry). So in my case, what did the pro shop put on the ball, that made it shiny again ?

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