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 Post subject: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:00 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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So the top weight in the Alias allows you to position the MB 6 3/4 from the thumb hole to turn the ball into a symmetrical ball. This makes sense since the asymmetry created by the thumb hole cancels out the asymmetry of the core. But how does this relate to a standard MB placement on other asymmetrical balls. It is always said that putting the MB farther from the thumb makes the ball get into the hook and roll phase sooner. But isn't putting the MB farther from the thumb, putting it closer to 6 3/4 away and thus cancelling out the asymmetry and making the ball more symmetrical? Do symmetrical balls usually get into a hook and roll phase sooner than an asymmetrical ball?

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:41 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
So the top weight in the Alias allows you to position the MB 6 3/4 from the thumb hole to turn the ball into a symmetrical ball. This makes sense since the asymmetry created by the thumb hole cancels out the asymmetry of the core. But how does this relate to a standard MB placement on other asymmetrical balls. It is always said that putting the MB farther from the thumb makes the ball get into the hook and roll phase sooner. But isn't putting the MB farther from the thumb, putting it closer to 6 3/4 away and thus cancelling out the asymmetry and making the ball more symmetrical? Do symmetrical balls usually get into a hook and roll phase sooner than an asymmetrical ball?

There are too any variables to make a definitive statement saying one rolls sooner than the other.
Layout, cover prep, release specs, lane condition all work together to determine the length to roll.

Generally speaking Track's "Symmetrical" layout will roll later because the core is not helping the ball get into a roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:10 am Post Number: #3 Post
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Another case of a company getting "cute" to be different, like this is some revolutionary thing.
You can get a symmetrical look out of an asymmetric core by going short on the Pin to PAP distance and larger on the drill angle, this will delay the migrating PAP from hitting the pin to spin line farther along the procession.
With this ill conceived idea by Track, the ball will never rev up as it wont cross the pin to spin line ever.
Really dumb idea if I'm to be brutally honest. Might as well buy a pancake block ball for cheap and scuff it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:46 am Post Number: #4 Post
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:D true to that, jajaja! Turning a $200 plus ball into a pancake core jajaja! Why is it that there’s still so much misinformation about core dynamics and layouts, I know that it may be a bit difficult to understand for some but if one makes an effort it’s not rocket science... Mega, have you read the new BTM article about layouts?


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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:06 am Post Number: #5 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Mega, have you read the new BTM article about layouts?


I dont have a subscription.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:54 am Post Number: #6 Post
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A member sent me a copy of the article. Thank you.

A look over of it and search of a few terms important to layouts.
Shockingly, no mention of tilt or rotation in the article, just rev rates.

Not much of an explanation into the functional differences between Asymmetrics and Symmetrics other than the fact that PSA is used to influence reaction in Asyms. Big difference in how the two core types shape the hook zone with different, near opposing Pin to PAP distances.

Are we supposed to assume tilt and rotation have no effect on hook shape? Is everyone made equal?

We all know the effects of Pin to PAP, VAL and drill angles from actual modeling by BluePrint WITH DATA, from article "Track Flare Explained" and the forum topic: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6000

No mentions on how to make all the adjustments for bowler specs, tilt, rotation, rev rates, speed, different core types of asymmetrics and symmetrics in the article. No mention of strong or medium asyms or even those weak asyms we should treat as symmetrics.

Very basic, very incomplete. Seems like it was just thrown together with "industry known facts". Heard that one before.

Members and bowlers can learn more about layouts thru the pro shop section of the wiki.
How and why behind asymmetrical balls, the first big Mo & Friends topic is also a good one here on the forum: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=69
Better yet, take a course based on Mo's material on http://bcu.bowlingchat.net

Layouts are used to shape the hook zone players of all different types. <---Period.
I consider it a sliding scale with no "dead zone" as the article implies.

Mo developed a system of dual angles and balance holes, its worked, and its proven.
It answers most if not all questions about ball motion, unlike the article posted in BTM.
With the "Track Flare Explained" article as well as the "How and Why behind asymmetrical balls" I think the BTM article was unnecessary and incomplete. Sorry.

If you want to get a pretty complete understanding, read those two forum links above. Its free, so its worth every penny!

TonyPR wrote:
Why is it that there’s still so much misinformation about core dynamics and layouts


Because there is a lot of bullshit out there and some pretty good bullshit artists (excusez mon français). Bowlers that dont know any better think because someone has worked in the industry for 20 years they are an expert with high level expertise. That assumption isnt always true. Very possible they've been doing it the wrong way for 20+ years and perpetuating it to others. Seen it!
The modern game has changed, and so should ball drillers! More BS means more confusion, no wonder I see so much bad ball motion out there!

After reading the BTM article I have to say "Thank God for Mo", otherwise we'd probably be thinking this type of publication is good science.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:55 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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After I watched one of the videos that was posted on this site I kept asking myself the same question, "why would any one want a ball that was truly symmetrical?" A ball that never tips, stands up, gets into it's roll, or whatever lingo you prefer to use. I agree with Mav, BS, large smelly pile of BS.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:04 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Anybody have an answer to my question in the original post? Is the difference that the Alias is putting the MB and pin to spin line past the PAP so it will never influence the motion vs a short drill angle where the axis will cross the pin to spin line soon in the balls path down the lane?

Still trying to understand the influence of the pin to spin line and how and why it changes the ball motion.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:27 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Lets see Track comes out with a ball that you can drill either “symmetrical” or “asymmetrical”

Radical came out with the FIX and other balls with the shapeshifter core, balls that you can drill either “symmetrical” or “asymmetrical”.

Why would anyone want a ball you could drill that way?

Well Radical said it offered:
Drilling options for all styles of bowlers

•Wide array of drillings that provide plenty of options for targeting ball motion on nearly all lane conditions
•Perfect option for players that like to develop their arsenals with their “favorite ball” using different layouts that provide significant differences in ball motion and breakpoint shape

Now I know everyone will say Radical's ball is totally different, but basically no it's not. Both are doing the same thing just Track just did it a little different way (probably to avoid some patent issue).

So if the idea wasn't BS for Radical, it's not BS for Track.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:13 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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I wont hog this thread, I'll wait to see if someone else will address bowl1820.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:04 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Now I know everyone will say Radical's ball is totally different, but basically no it's not. Both are doing the same thing just Track just did it a little different way (probably to avoid some patent issue).


Not the same thing. The Fix doesn't stay sym. after drilling, it acts the same as a ball with sym. properties if drilled a certain way. Alias remains sym. after drilling. It doesn't have a PSA, MB, Int. diff., etc. so how is this the same as The Fix. Apples and oranges.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:27 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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I would like to see one of these drilled up sym. and spun on a determinator.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:08 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Note I didn't claim the balls were exactly the same, just that both companies (using different methods and making different claims about spec.) had produced balls that had the same end result. Balls that could be drilled to act either Asymmetrically or Symmetrically.

And if the idea is okay for one company, it's okay for the other. Now I can't say if one companies method is better than the other. But if they produce the same result it doesn't overtly matter.

Now whether the Alias actually doesn't have a PSA, MB, Int. diff., etc I can't say. I've only seen one Alias in person (I don't how it was layed out) being used (looked okay).

But looking at the videos of the ball being used drilled Sym. it appears to work. So being a ball that never tips, stands up, gets into it's roll doesn't seem to be problem.

I'd like to see it on a Determinator too! IMO there's probably some hint of a PSA after drilling.

example:Laneside here has the ball drilled both ways being used by the same players.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:09 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Watched that video right after my last post. Looks like it struck but doesn't look like it get into the roll phase the best if at all. The only thing is that the marketing states that the ball stays sym. after drilling, which again I ask why is that a good thing. Interesting, not saying that it doesn't work but in the video made by Track they show with Blueprint that it stays sym. NOT that it acts like a sym. after drilling, that why I say it is apples to oranges. They would have made the only ball (to my limited knowledge) that is still sym. after drilling. How is this a good thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:11 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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And J_w73 I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but might shed some light.http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Spin_Time

Sorry, check next post, might help more.

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Last edited by Dustin on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:20 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
But isn't putting the MB farther from the thumb, putting it closer to 6 3/4 away and thus cancelling out the asymmetry and making the ball more symmetrical? Do symmetrical balls usually get into a hook and roll phase sooner than an asymmetrical ball?

Not 100% sure what you are asking with the first question. Placing the PSA by the PAP would cause the PAP to migrate around the high rg axis (PSA) and not migrate across the ball. Page 5 lower right ball inthe picture. http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/0/06/Axis_mig_and_cores.pdf

No asym. can get into the hook and roll sooner then a sym.
Longer pin-pap and smaller drill angles promote the earlier roll in asym. The smaller drill angle is hard to achieve with a sym. ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:25 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Dustin wrote:
Not 100% sure what you are asking with the first question. Placing the PSA by the PAP would cause the PAP to migrate around the high rg axis (PSA) and not migrate across the ball. Page 5 lower right ball inthe picture. http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/0/06/Axis_mig_and_cores.pdf

No asym. can get into the hook and roll sooner then a sym.
Longer pin-pap and smaller drill angles promote the earlier roll in asym. The smaller drill angle is hard to achieve with a sym. ball.


My point is that when you have a 35 deg drill angle, this would sometimes put the MB 5 or 6 inches away from the thumb hole. Why when you do this, the common knowledge is that it make the ball get into a roll sooner.. but putting the MB like this would also be farther from the thumb, thus cancelling out the asymetry like on the alias... So why the difference between the reactions.

After seeing the discussion, I'm guessing it is because the alias puts the MB and pin to spin line already past the PAP so the MB spot has no influence on the reaction..

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:38 am Post Number: #18 Post
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Every ball is asymmetrical after drilling. Apparently the Alias is designed to remain completely symmetrical after drilling if drilled a certain way, what this will do is take the core out of the equation and reaction will be dominated by coverstock.

Would be interesting to spin it with the different recommended layouts. Would be even more interesting to do it without a thumbhole...


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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:49 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Not a bowling technologist by any means just a 77 year old bowler " who although loves bowling hates the modern game". You can see my specs in my signature. I just purchased an alias 14lbs and it was drilled -10 x 5 1/2 x 30. Used it Sunday at an ABT tournament with the shot being the ABT 7 which is a 46ft length ratio = 1.80 and volume = 24.10. All i can say is that it skids hooks and rolls and eats oil and hits hard. Not to demean anybody here but If I was using a scuffed up pancake weight block ball I probably wouldn't have cashed. I would say that although the Fix and the Alias are not the same I would have to agree with bowl1820 that the symmetrical results between the two would probably be similar. I'm also sure that there are Radical die hard fans just as there are Track fans, Storm fans, and whatever floats you boat go for it. In my opinion there really isn't that much new in bowling ball releases just a lot of rehashes to sell more product.

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 Post subject: Re: Alias concept and MB position for other balls
 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:26 am Post Number: #20 Post
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jdrsuper wrote:
Not a bowling technologist by any means just a 77 year old bowler " who although loves bowling hates the modern game". You can see my specs in my signature. I just purchased an alias 14lbs and it was drilled -10 x 5 1/2 x 30. Used it Sunday at an ABT tournament with the shot being the ABT 7 which is a 46ft length ratio = 1.80 and volume = 24.10. All i can say is that it skids hooks and rolls and eats oil and hits hard. Not to demean anybody here but If I was using a scuffed up pancake weight block ball I probably wouldn't have cashed. I would say that although the Fix and the Alias are not the same I would have to agree with bowl1820 that the symmetrical results between the two would probably be similar. I'm also sure that there are Radical die hard fans just as there are Track fans, Storm fans, and whatever floats you boat go for it. In my opinion there really isn't that much new in bowling ball releases just a lot of rehashes to sell more product.


How much flare are you getting with the Symmetrical drilling?

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