Urethane effect

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56bird
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Urethane effect

Post by 56bird » January 1st, 2018, 2:21 am

TonyPR wrote:..
-People may complain urethane will ruin a pattern but can't legally make someone stop using it so the best strategy is to learn how to deal with the difficult conditions created...
Can we talk about this a little bit? What effects do *you* see when someone used urethane on your pair? How do you deal with it?

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by bowl1820 » January 1st, 2018, 2:39 am

56bird wrote: Can we talk about this a little bit? What effects do *you* see when someone used urethane on your pair? How do you deal with it?
Urethane generates carrydown

While Resin and Urethane both strip oil off the lane, Urethane creates more carrydown than Resin does.

This is Because it doesn't absorb oil as quickly as Resin does and it sits on the surface of the ball and Then gets deposited on the lane down lane.

So the question now becomes how do you deal with carrydown? The answer of which would depend on what kind of ball your using, Resin or Urethane?
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by BigDog » January 1st, 2018, 3:16 am

I was bowling on a pair with the guy with the highest average in our league a few weeks ago. I shot 708 with my urethane Visionary Sorcerer and he shot 720 something with his Code Black. After we were done he was surprised to find out I was throwing a urethane ball. His response was “No wonder I could stay in the same spot all night”. In other words he didn’t have to keep moving left all night long. For that matter, neither did I. Interesting take on it I thought.

I have heard other people comment that the oil carry down is affecting their shot when I throw urethane. It’s funny though because they are usually no where near where I am playing and I usually have to move in a few boards as the night goes on because my ball starts breaking too much. Just my experience.

The only time I have personally been affected by my own urethane ball carry down Iis when I am practicing on a freshly oiled lane by myself with a urethane ball. If others are using reactive I don’t see it (carry down from urethane).
Last edited by BigDog on January 1st, 2018, 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by BigDog » January 1st, 2018, 3:45 am

bowl1820 wrote:
Urethane generates carrydown

While Resin and Urethane both strip oil off the lane, Urethane creates more carrydown than Resin does.

This is Because it doesn't absorb oil as quickly as Resin does and it sits on the surface of the ball and Then gets deposited on the lane down lane.

So the question now becomes how do you deal with carrydown? The answer of which would depend on what kind of ball your using, Resin or Urethane?

I agree that both ball types strip oil off the lane which is why there is oil on the ball when they come back. I wonder though, if the reactive ball can actually be absorbing oil that much while it’s going down the lane. From what I have seen it absorbs oil when it is sitting on the ball return waiting for the next frame. I can see that urethane balls can redeposit more oil if people don’t wipe the oil off between shots (which I do) but otherwise I am not sure there is that big of a difference. I am not trying to be controversial, these are just my observations.

I still believe there is carry down when all of the bowlers on the pair are using reactives (for instance when theback ends smooth out after practice). When I see it, there are several options I have been successful trying: using a ball with more surface, moving a couple of boards right (I’m right handed) or moving my target a board or two left. It really depends on the oil pattern I am on.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by bowl1820 » January 1st, 2018, 3:56 am

BigDog wrote: I wonder though, if the reactive ball can actually be absorbing oil that much while it’s going down the lane.
Yes! Unless the ball is oil soaked. A lot of the oil is absorbed before the ball gets back to you.

Just roll your urethane down the lane and look at how much oil is on it, then roll your resin ball and compare the two.

The resin ball will have a lot less, depending on which coverstock it uses of course.
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by ads » January 1st, 2018, 4:50 am

I threw Radical Guru and Hammer Dark Legend on the same pair of lane, the same night with same surface interchangeably. Guru returned with less oil on the ball surface and the oil also disappeared quicker if I didn't wipe it out immediately.

For carry down, I guess low flare balls with bigger bowtie area may contribute much. Most bowlers in my league like to throw the spare ball through the 2nd arrow to take the 10 pin off. These spare shots may also ruin the break point as well.
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by Nord » January 1st, 2018, 5:21 am

BigDog wrote:I was bowling on a pair with the guy with the highest average in our league a few weeks ago. I shot 708 with my urethane Visionary Sorcerer and he shot 720 something with his Code Black. After we were done he was surprised to find out I was throwing a urethane ball. His response was “No wonder I could stay in the same spot all night”.
This experience you had is actually pretty amazing and let me tell you why:
My doubles partner uses a Code Black and I use my urethane arsenal.
Though our games are very different, we both usually have the same exact target line.
Since I switched to urethane exclusively this season, both his average and mine have been increasing.
This season we both got honor score patches, he got the high scratch series and I shot my new high series, we got the high handicap game and we won the season!
Oh, and we usually don't have to move much at all during our set.

So his ball takes it off and mine puts it back and we reach equilibrium?
His resin ball is taking oil off making my urethane read better, but my urethane ball is putting oil back allowing his resin ball to not overreact.
He is the anchor so he always follows me.
Could it be possible???
Last edited by Nord on January 4th, 2018, 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by 56bird » January 3rd, 2018, 5:42 pm

bowl1820 wrote: So the question now becomes how do you deal with carrydown? The answer of which would depend on what kind of ball your using, Resin or Urethane?
This is what I'm getting at. What ball to use? What strategy/laneplay?

I've tried a few things, curious what works or has worked for others.

It occurs to me that people have a different view of "urethane effect" because they play the lanes differently to begin with, thus see different effects.

If you're playing the oil line, and a player with a lot of hand is able to play a similar line with urethane, you're going to feel it.

If you're laying the ball down on the left side of the lane (for righties), crossing the pond and bouncing off the outside, maybe you wouldn't notice it at all.

I'm mainly talking about house shots here.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by rrb6699 » January 4th, 2018, 2:35 am

I bowled in a league our team was in the middle of the pack. We matched up against the first-place team who were rolling over everyone week after week. the "house" team if you will.

Myself and a teammate decided to use are urethane balls and aiming to the break point area coming in from the oil line. I was high set that night with 570. ten guys.

their whole team averaged 205+ till that night. Now they didn't know how to adjust off of their house shot they expected. we won all the points.

we tried this a frw times and it doesn't always work, but, it does freak out some bowlers because they know it can not just affect the shot but moreso carry.

I'm thinking of putting together a better urethane Arsenal. I'm convinced resin balls are manufacturered with built-in obsolescence. maybe even to the point of it being part of your entry fee for each tournament.

I believe urethane balls can last 10 years or more. they are much more durable than resin because this obsolescence cannot be manufactured into them.

I believe surface management on a urethane Arsenal can give you decent results and last 10 times longer than a resin Arsenal.

I'm going to try it the last half of this season and compare my results to the first half. plus I'm going to go to 16lb for my urethane equipment.

rr

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by RobMautner » January 4th, 2018, 2:58 am

I think that much of the difficulty as it is expressed here is that bowlers are forgetting that there are three parts of the lane: the heads, the mids, and the back ends. Everyone talks about carry down with urethane, but carry down just affects the back ends. We talk about reactive resin absorbing oil, but thats primarily in the mids, and we neglect to mention the heads where the heavily sanded urethane covers rip up the lay down point.

To figure out how to deal with lane conditions were bowlers are playing different lines with different types of bowling balls, you have to "see" what is happening in the heads, the mids, and the backends, and figure out what lateral adjustments and what ball changes will give you the most room for error. It's difficult, but unless you can generate 500+ rpms, you had better learn to do it.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by TonyPR » January 4th, 2018, 3:40 am

Well said Rob!

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by mrbean » January 4th, 2018, 1:36 pm

rrb6699 wrote:I'm going to try it the last half of this season and compare my results to the first half. plus I'm going to go to 16lb for my urethane equipment.
there is a 16 lb NIB quantum urethane ball on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/quantum-bowlin ... Ciid%253A1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by 56bird » January 4th, 2018, 4:02 pm

RobMautner wrote:
To figure out how to deal with lane conditions were bowlers are playing different lines with different types of bowling balls, you have to "see" what is happening in the heads, the mids, and the backends, and figure out what lateral adjustments and what ball changes will give you the most room for error. It's difficult, but unless you can generate 500+ rpms, you had better learn to do it.
Yes, that is the purpose of this thread. I'd like to learn to do it. I can *see* my ball starting to flat ten. A small move right makes the reactive ball go thru the face. Moving left puts me into the soup which exacerbates the problem. The best I've come up with so far:

1. Ball up and stay pretty much put. Try to undo what has been done.

2. Can't beat em, join em. Storm Natural sanded to 360/1000. It's kind of like conceding as it's my D game against a talented player's A game.

Again, not knocking urethane or the bowlers who use it. Seems a good strategy, to me.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by EricHartwell » January 5th, 2018, 12:06 am

The Urethane effect....
I am a urethane fan and am glad there are higher flaring options today. I had great success with my old Hammers back in the day and I especially liked the Black Phantom with its Asymmetrical core.
Enter the time of Reactive, I played what I called defensive bowling putting a line of carry down in front of the pocket and killing the shot for the crankers throwing reactive. They start balling up and I am moving right to keep the line of hold in front of me. They are doing nothing but complaining about poor lane conditions not even realizing what I am doing to them. This was done with the original Blue Hammer 1000 grit dull virtually no flare playing the early read of old school urethane

Today I have the new Blue hammer with a high flaring layout 80-3-45 Motion Hole and 4000 grit shine, I cannot play the defensive bowling with it, If I don't wipe the ball off religiously I cant get it to roll after only a couple of frames. But...
I keep it clean using a clean leather shammy and I make moves to the left and chase the oil inside just like playing reactive. Just last night I rolled 713 and our anchor bowler rolled 705 with him starting 2 boards inside of me of me using Reactive. Both of us using the same breakpoint. He rolls with higher speed and higher tilt than I do. I used the Urethane for all 3 games and he used his Melee all 3 games. Both of us were looking for a solution for this walled up low volume 40' house shot. I moved a total of 7 boards with my feet and 5 boards with my target. He moved 9 boards with his feet and 6 boards with his target. When I use reactive I start 4 boards inside of him.
I have been reluctant to use Urethane for all 3 games because he is one of those guys that believed urethane ruins the shot, so I have only been going to it for the 3rd game once the condition breaks down. He said to me right at the beginning of the night "Your not using urethane are you?" I told him Yes I am, Im tired of fighting the over reaction my lack of ball speed is giving me. Don't worry I will keep it wiped off and not create carry down. Mission accomplished. He won't be complaining about me using urethane any more
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by Nord » January 17th, 2018, 1:22 am

I was in Vegas for the CES and took my urethane balls.
I went to South Point and bowled on their super great lanes.
Plenty of oil.
I started with my Widow and bowled three games.
By the end of three games the Widow had taken enough oil off my target line that the Widow started to go high.
I balled down to my Purple Hammer and was able to play the same line for 3 more games without an issue.
Then I picked up the Widow again and tried the same line to see if the Purple had caused carrydown since it is barely flaring.
The Widow hooked way too much now!
So even the Purple did not oil up the target line and was actually taking oil off the line.
And remember it was just me on this lane with only urethane balls.
Urethane effect?
There did not seem to be any.
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by snick » January 17th, 2018, 2:00 am

Bowlers use urethane frequently in both of my leagues. I personally see no ill effects at all from it, in terms of gross changes to the pattern.
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by rrb6699 » January 17th, 2018, 4:31 pm

if urethane balls are wiped religiously, it can minimize carrydown. rough sanded urethane balls will "hold" more oil to wipe off, but shiny surfaces on any type of urethane or reactive equipment and low flare equipment can affect the shot radically. especially if more than one bowler are using them.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by 56bird » January 21st, 2018, 4:59 pm

I’m starting to see that this thread was a poor idea on my part because it’s one of these “you had to be there” kinds of things.

The times I have experienced this, I was facing a bowler who was playing a similar break point to me, but straighter down the boards. I would guesstimate his rev rate at 350+, 17 mph+ at the monitors, and he brings at least two Fab hammers that have seen no surface prep, just lane shine condition. He’s a talented player who can easily “out-hook” me with reactive when he wants.

Gross effect on pattern? No, not at all. It’s insidious. All is going well, big first game, by the second game I’m starting to flat ten, over and over. If I move left, the ball goes even longer, if I move right even a little bit, it’s thru the face for a big four or whatever. Meanwhile he *can* move right if he wants, because urethane. One thing I notice when I use my Natural is I find areas of the lane to the right which are normally unplayable, playable.

I think smart money is to ball up with more surface and move left off the oil line. Make an effort to undo what is being done. I should probably be doing this no matter *who* I’m facing.

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Re: Urethane effect

Post by EricHartwell » January 21st, 2018, 6:19 pm

56bird wrote:I’m starting to see that this thread was a poor idea on my part because it’s one of these “you had to be there” kinds of things.

The times I have experienced this, I was facing a bowler who was playing a similar break point to me, but straighter down the boards. I would guesstimate his rev rate at 350+, 17 mph+ at the monitors, and he brings at least two Fab hammers that have seen no surface prep, just lane shine condition. He’s a talented player who can easily “out-hook” me with reactive when he wants.

Gross effect on pattern? No, not at all. It’s insidious. All is going well, big first game, by the second game I’m starting to flat ten, over and over. If I move left, the ball goes even longer, if I move right even a little bit, it’s thru the face for a big four or whatever. Meanwhile he *can* move right if he wants, because urethane. One thing I notice when I use my Natural is I find areas of the lane to the right which are normally unplayable, playable.

I think smart money is to ball up with more surface and move left off the oil line. Make an effort to undo what is being done. I should probably be doing this no matter *who* I’m facing.
I used to be the guy you are speaking of back in the early 2000's, Bringing my Old Blue and Black Hammers on purposely playing near the track area breakpoint 9-12 at 38-40 ft, dragging oil towards the pocket. Messing up the line for the bowlers that did not realize what I was doing. My teammates knew what I was doing to the lanes and would play the lanes accordingly. I called it defensive bowling. I did this averaging 210+ and my teams bowling average was a combined 205+. The lowest average, 195 from a guy that never averaged 200 and was bowling good to average 195. They all used shiny reactive balls with mild drillings and would make sure that their breakpoints were outside of mine.
The line of carrydown I left behind would provide hold to the inside for them. The other teams would standing way left of me and balling up using their strongest/dullest balls trying to play over the top of where I was ruining the condition. They had basically zero room for error.
My moves were to move my feet but not my target at the arrows. By game 3 I created a wedge of friction Early on the lanes swinging my ball outside of the line of carrydown.

The biggest thing to realize is what he is doing to the lanes by paying attention to where his ball is traveling on the lanes not just at the breakpoint but in the heads as well. Dull equipment will burn up early in the wedge, flat 10's. Shiny equip playing to far the inside will skate the breakpoint because of the carrydown. I feel the best way to combat this is to play Around the carrydown not through it. Lining up just inside the old school urethane guy 1-2 boards, crossing his line in the midlane to get your breakpoint outside of his. Or playing completely outside of him.
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Re: Urethane effect

Post by 56bird » January 21st, 2018, 7:58 pm

EricHartwell wrote: I used to be the guy you are speaking of back in the early 2000's, Bringing my Old Blue and Black Hammers on purposely playing near the track area breakpoint 9-12 at 38-40 ft, dragging oil towards the pocket. Messing up the line for the bowlers that did not realize what I was doing. My teammates knew what I was doing to the lanes and would play the lanes accordingly. I called it defensive bowling. I did this averaging 210+ and my teams bowling average was a combined 205+. The lowest average, 195 from a guy that never averaged 200 and was bowling good to average 195. They all used shiny reactive balls with mild drillings and would make sure that their breakpoints were outside of mine.
The line of carrydown I left behind would provide hold to the inside for them. The other teams would standing way left of me and balling up using their strongest/dullest balls trying to play over the top of where I was ruining the condition. They had basically zero room for error.
My moves were to move my feet but not my target at the arrows. By game 3 I created a wedge of friction Early on the lanes swinging my ball outside of the line of carrydown.

The biggest thing to realize is what he is doing to the lanes by paying attention to where his ball is traveling on the lanes not just at the breakpoint but in the heads as well. Dull equipment will burn up early in the wedge, flat 10's. Shiny equip playing to far the inside will skate the breakpoint because of the carrydown. I feel the best way to combat this is to play Around the carrydown not through it. Lining up just inside the old school urethane guy 1-2 boards, crossing his line in the midlane to get your breakpoint outside of his. Or playing completely outside of him.
Someone gets it! I will consider trying my RG Hustle at 4000 or even a touch of polish if/when I find myself bowling someone like this again. I’ve had some experience rolling around open-play carrydown when practicing, always prefered a shiny pearl for that duty. Important to reiterate, it’s not a dig against that guy, and honestly not a dig at all against anyone who seems to be denying this can happen. All I can tell you is, if it happens, you’ll know. Every bowler is different, every lane surface is different etc etc. Setting the lane up for you, while making it tougher for your opponent-win/win. So what if your average ends up moderately lower than it might be with reactive... your match point percentage could go thru the roof!

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