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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:29 am Post Number: #21 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
what shapes should I go for


Whatever shapes are best for your release specs.
If you genuinely have 0 tilt, high ratios are not recommended.
Not if you're interested in scoring consistently at least.

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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:40 am Post Number: #22 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
maybe I need to find all my specs again to be sure of them. then, drill my next set of balls for different shapes.

what shapes should I go for and how many balls will it take? I have a lot of aggressive stuff with smooth shapes right now. I need some hockey stick shapes of different angles or sharpness of the shape (skid/flip strong to weaker)

The Basic Arsenal, 6 balls
Totally Strong ....... early and angular
Midlane ............... early w/strong arc
Benchmark ........... Strong reaction
Control ................ arc
Long and Strong ... self explanatory
low flare .............. long arc
rrb6699 wrote:
perhaps the sharpest shape with the quickest reaction to friction could be something like 110 x 3 1/4 x 40 maybe 35. I'd have to also see how the pin looks on a layout like this.

110* drilling angle is outside the guidelines for the Dual Angle Method and even so it would be more like a Long and Strong.
Also what kind of ball? Symmetrical it is pretty much impossible to end up with a 110* drilling angle. The Cg could be at 110* putting the thumb hole in the area of 70*-80* depending on your PAP.

You have described your release as speed dominant. For the sharpest shape and quickest reaction to friction you looking at Totals much lower than 150* as in your example.

Getting accurate release specs including your PAP is important if you want layouts tuned to your release.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:03 am Post Number: #23 Post
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that blueprint is close to where my initial track ring is.

im gonna measure my AoR next week, re-measure my tilt just to be sure, my speed downlane is 17 avg. pap is different on different balls .

I'm gonna make sure and re-check that now.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:20 am Post Number: #24 Post
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VIDEO.

Taken jan 12th, 2018.
not great quality or angle, but, may give you something.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIX0_Q1DPWQ

rr


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:37 am Post Number: #25 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
VIDEO.

Taken jan 12th, 2018.
not great quality or angle, but, may give you something.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIX0_Q1DPWQ

rr

Yeah the quality makes it tough, also the camera is set too high off the floor and not really in line with the direction of your shot. Rotation is low. I can see that much.

Here are a couple of links to check out for getting your release specs...
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Revs_Tilt
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

rrb6699 wrote:
that blueprint is close to where my initial track ring is.

im gonna measure my AoR next week, re-measure my tilt just to be sure, my speed downlane is 17 avg. pap is different on different balls .

I'm gonna make sure and re-check that now.

To find your rotation you are going to need to find and mark your PAP.
Using a lower flaring or a ball with no flare will make it easier to see and measure your rotation.
When you get your release specs List your PAP from a high flaring ball and from a low flaring ball.

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45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:37 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Good point. On that case 0* of tilt should not cause problems?

Other thing which is interesting in that case is that should these bowlers use full roller layouts what are on wiki or something else?


That depends on where the initial track is located. What I call a "true full roller" has the initial track between the thumb and finger holes. In that case a full roller layout is needed to reverse the flare migration so the later tracks don't hit the holes. If the initial track is located similarly to a semi-roller track but has 0 axis tilt a full roller layout is not needed, and in fact should not be used because the reversal of the track migration would result in the track hitting the holes. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:41 am Post Number: #27 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Rotation is low. I can see that much.

Using a lower flaring or a ball with no flare will make it easier to see and measure your rotation.
When you get your release specs List your PAP from a high flaring ball and from a low flaring ball.


I can use my spare ball it has no flare. thanks for that input. I don't have any ball that flares more than approx 5"

I can tell you I have more trouble on the lane surfaces with lower friction or longer patterns. even with aggressive equipment. part of that is my arsenal because I don't have a good fit or benchmark ball.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:11 am Post Number: #28 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Rotation is low. I can see that much.


Disagree. I think hes close to 90*. Watch the ball rotation off his hand, not 15ft down the lane in the burn when his ball flips forward.

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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:02 am Post Number: #29 Post
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I can see that. that can be why I have trouble on less friction. I've got to be able to reduce that some when I need to. just my natural release tendency. when it works its great.

I've been all over the map lately. I go 2 days where I'm flirting with 300 every game or in each session. (277, 298 friday, Saturday two different houses) to having trouble hitting 200 on a sport shot Sunday. that was poor spare shooting and no carry.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 am Post Number: #30 Post
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110* drilling angle is outside the guidelines for the Dual Angle Method and even so it would be more like a Long and Strong.
Also what kind of ball? Symmetrical it is pretty much impossible to end up with a 110* drilling angle. The Cg could be at 110* putting the thumb hole in the area of 70*-80* depending on your PAP.

You have described your release as speed dominant. For the sharpest shape and quickest reaction to friction you looking at Totals much lower than 150* as in your example.

Getting accurate release specs including your PAP is important if you want layouts tuned to your release.[/quote]
.

I have never tried an extreme layout like this. I think I could learn something from it then see where I can top my sums out at. that's my idea. I have plenty of balls I can try it on that are less than 4 yrs old. I have a Grease Monkey Whack drilled double thumb that I dont like at all I can experiment with. a Xeno that is drilled aggressive, and a grudge solid I use to like but I've had days where I hit the pocked and leave solid 5s, 5,7s. its like that ball weighs 10lbs but its a 15.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
perhaps the sharpest shape with the quickest reaction to friction could be something like 110 x 3 1/4 x 40 maybe 35. I'd have to also see how the pin looks on a layout like this.

I have seen over 90* drilling angles on this video and on this guide.
There you can also see pin location.

On both of these it is used together with strong asymmetrical ball to make small flare layout.


rrb6699 wrote:
I have never tried an extreme layout like this. I think I could learn something from it then see where I can top my sums out at. that's my idea. I have plenty of balls I can try it on that are less than 4 yrs old.

It is nice that here is also someone else who like to try something new instead just doing things by the book.

Anyway, I did some simulations for you which shows that it is possible to use 110* drill angle to symmetrical bowling ball (or actually drill angle is even more because MB migrates away from thumb hole), make it statically legal (finger holes need to be deep enough because of top weight):
Attachment:
110x3 1-4x40.PNG

NOTE! Above is valid only if your PAP is far enough. PAP location on this example is just something what I guessed based on that you said that initial track is near of holes.

and there is it look when it is thrown with 0* tilt:
Attachment:
110x3 1-4x40 - 2.PNG


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:48 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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thats a very interesting layout.

on an assym, if the undrilled ball has a short pin and low top weight, what would that look like?

if its too much work dont worry.

I tried a 70 x 4 x 35 on a newer LT-48 and when that ball matched up I had a huge area to the pocket . But, I could only go so far left with that ball. although, further left than my other stuff.

That's one reason I started thinking about a larger drill angle.

I can try your blueprint you sent in the prior post on the GM Whack. After I plug it, I'll throw it on a determinator and re-mark cg in case it changes.

for the assym, if you can work it up I'll try that too.

once I try this on these older balls, I will get a very strong cover pearl of some type and reduce the drill angle if necessary. what are or is the strongest pearl or hybrid cover out now?

was there a reason you recommend a symmetrical ball?


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:45 pm Post Number: #33 Post
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The Blueprint simulations are for a Columbia Outburst, a discontinued ball. To assume they will be true for other balls is a mistake.

Several questions come to mind about the simulations.
Where is the Mass Bias if you only drill the fingers 2" deep?
Where is the Mass Bias if the initial angle from Pin to Cg to PAP is 50* or 130*?
What kind of results do you get when using a PAP of 5" over no up or down.

What kind of anomaly made the PSA show up that far left of the thumb hole?

What did you start with for Top weight that you needed to have the fingers 3" deep.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:06 am Post Number: #34 Post
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based on all the questions that arise, it seems that once I plug my Grease Monkey Whack I need to know my pap. then run the ball on the determinator to mark it and see how fast it spins up. I may have the original box it came in with the spec label. maybe with that info and my span specs I can start the ball markup.

What kind of anomaly made the PSA show up that far left of the thumb hole?

as for the anomoly I dont think it is one. That's probably where it has to be on that ball to achieve those D/A numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:32 am Post Number: #35 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
as for the anomoly I dont think it is one. That's probably where it has to be on that ball to achieve those D/A numbers.

That is why I asked the question "Where is the Mass Bias if the initial angle from Pin to Cg to PAP is 50* or 130*?"
If the results show the Mass Bias at the given angle then Blueprint is just assuming the location of the PSA by the Cg to Pin to PAP angle and the results mean nothing if that is the case.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 am Post Number: #36 Post
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I can't speak for him, but, he could have used his own specs or an arbitrary set given the sym ball he used as input to the program. if he looked up mine I think they are not accurate anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:15 am Post Number: #37 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The Blueprint simulations are for a Columbia Outburst, a discontinued ball. To assume they will be true for other balls is a mistake.

True. I don't assume anything. I just say that it is possible on this ball and most likely will be possible on some other ball too.

EricHartwell wrote:
Where is the Mass Bias if you only drill the fingers 2" deep?

More near of thumb hole but still on same side.

EricHartwell wrote:
Where is the Mass Bias if the initial angle from Pin to Cg to PAP is 50* or 130*?

If Pin to Gc is anything on guideline (10* - 90*) MB is on thumb hole. With 130* it moves more away from thumb hole.

EricHartwell wrote:
What kind of results do you get when using a PAP of 5" over no up or down.

MB location is about same. Initial oil track is move away from thumb/finger holes even with 0* tilt.

EricHartwell wrote:
What kind of anomaly made the PSA show up that far left of the thumb hole?

No anomoly as far I know.

EricHartwell wrote:
What did you start with for Top weight that you needed to have the fingers 3" deep.

3 oz

rrb6699 wrote:
on an assym, if the undrilled ball has a short pin and low top weight, what would that look like?

Let's try. Here we have asym 2 inch pin, 2 oz top weight and using a PAP of 5" over no up or down.
Attachment:
110x3 1-4x40 - asym.PNG

Attachment:
110x3 1-4x40 - asym2.PNG


rrb6699 wrote:
was there a reason you recommend a symmetrical ball?

I don't recommend anything. I just wanted to try if what Eric said was true:
EricHartwell wrote:
Symmetrical it is pretty much impossible to end up with a 110* drilling angle. The Cg could be at 110* putting the thumb hole in the area of 70*-80* depending on your PAP.


rrb6699 wrote:
I can't speak for him, but, he could have used his own specs or an arbitrary set given the sym ball he used as input to the program. if he looked up mine I think they are not accurate anymore.

I just used this example player from Blueprint and then tweaked delivery parameters to hit pocket and PAP location to get initial track near of holes with 0* tilt.
Attachment:
player.png


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:28 am Post Number: #38 Post
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sort of reminds me of one of the Riot layouts with a short (2") pin to pap and mb is located on the track. I know its unique but just struck me that way first glance..

the Riot layout with a hole shows 3 placements to adjust flare potential. hole on the pap reduces flare potential.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:13 am Post Number: #39 Post
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Update: I stopped by the lanes and got a pair. with much trickery fooling my phone to video, I took several videos. its a little better angle. I was immersed in what I was doing at point of release. I'm fascinated because it started with a 277 game 2 weeks ago. since then I'm shooting at 300 a lot. 298/733 to qualify 1st that weekend, then 971 for 4 to qualify 1st the next day.

then last weekend in a trios event we qualified 1st again. I had a low early game fooling with thumb fit and changing balls, but figured out the modified shot to avg over 230 for the last three of the 4-gamer.

I feel like I'm on to something finally.
here are the vids:

https://youtu.be/bjkYgEHoqlw

https://youtu.be/-kjBSRQQYH8

I'll mark pap next session. I actually carved it into this ball but forgot to tape over it.

approaches were quite slick. speed is on monitor from downlane scanner.


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 Post subject: Re: 0 degree tilt!
 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:39 pm Post Number: #40 Post
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Things which comes to my mind when I look these videos. You are:
  • Running => try keep first steps slower
  • Throwing the ball => try keep your hand relaxed and just let ball just go
  • Lofting ball quite far => try to let if drop of your hand

Is these issue or not depends on which level you want to be. What comes to these results I don't be killjoy but there looks be huge room of error.


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