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 Post subject: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:02 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I am a right 2-handed bowler that throws approx. 18-20 mph with a fairly high rev rate.
I am a 210-220 avg bowler and have bowled all my life so I know my problem is not my release or anything.

So I recently bought the Dare Devil Danger 15 lbs to replace my storm crossroad and I am having a little trouble. I am basically getting 0 hook out of the ball unless I throw in uncomfortably slow. I'm essentially throwing a down and in with it right now. I was just wondering if it could be the way I got it drilled. I've been trying to read up on whether i should redrill my ball or get it resurfaced to a lower grit. I have read a few things that say redrilling is bad for the ball and I have seen a few that says it does not matter.

I was just looking for some suggestions on what I should do to help this.

Thank You


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:32 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Try resurfacing it before redrilling, the surface has a lot more effect on the ball's reaction than the layout does. You can do this yourself, just get some various grits of wet/dry sandpaper, fold a piece into quarters, hold it in your palm and sand the entire ball using a rotary motion. If the dust bothers you wet the paper enough to minimize it. It doesn't take long, maybe 30 - 45 seconds. You won't get as good a job as using a spinner, but you'll be able to do this while you're open bowling and see the results immediately. Good luck. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:20 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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What's the oil pattern, lane material, line you wish to play with it? How and where is the ball going through the three phases of ball motion (hook is only one of them)?

You gave us your speed, is that monitor speed or off the hand?
Do you know your axis tilt, rpms and axis rotation?
What is your PAP and what is the layout on the ball? Does it have a balance hole?
What surface grit do you have on the ball now?

Yes, altering the surface is the easiest and most significant to ball motion change you can do on the ball but we don't know if the layout is appropriate for your specs (which we don't know)

Is the 210-220 avg on a house shot or on a sport pattern?
Not because you have a high average does it mean there isn't an adjustment you could make in your release. If that speed is monitor speed it's pretty fast and it's possible you are rolling the ball past the breakpoint. Lowering speed for that specific pattern and/or stage of transition could be the answer or maybe reducing axis rotation but you said you need to go too slow so most definitely lowering speed is not the answer. What I am trying to say is that there are many variables we need to examine to know what is causing the undesirable ball reaction. The more data you can provide the better chance we have at determining what's going on.

...but yes, all things being equal, scuffing the ball with a lower grit pad might do the trick. Try it by hand and see what happens. Please report back.


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:09 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
What's the oil pattern, lane material, line you wish to play with it? How and where is the ball going through the three phases of ball motion (hook is only one of them)?

You gave us your speed, is that monitor speed or off the hand?
Do you know your axis tilt, rpms and axis rotation?
What is your PAP and what is the layout on the ball? Does it have a balance hole?
What surface grit do you have on the ball now?

Yes, altering the surface is the easiest and most significant to ball motion change you can do on the ball but we don't know if the layout is appropriate for your specs (which we don't know)

Is the 210-220 avg on a house shot or on a sport pattern?
Not because you have a high average does it mean there isn't an adjustment you could make in your release. If that speed is monitor speed it's pretty fast and it's possible you are rolling the ball past the breakpoint. Lowering speed for that specific pattern and/or stage of transition could be the answer or maybe reducing axis rotation but you said you need to go too slow so most definitely lowering speed is not the answer. What I am trying to say is that there are many variables we need to examine to know what is causing the undesirable ball reaction. The more data you can provide the better chance we have at determining what's going on.

...but yes, all things being equal, scuffing the ball with a lower grit pad might do the trick. Try it by hand and see what happens. Please report back.


Yes this is on a house shot.
As for the 3 phases it basically just skids all the way down the lane. I could easily get a 10 pin with it.
I am a 2 hander but I do not like a massive hook. I typically like to stand directly in the middle and throw in between the second and third arrow. If i do that with the ball now I end up hitting the 6 and 10 pins generally.
The 18-20 mph is monitor screen. I have heard the term throwing through your breakpoint but I threw the same with my crossroad and never really had a problem.
As for rpms, axis tilt, axis rotation I am not sure.
The ball had a 1500 grit polished factory finish and I have only bowled maybe 10-15 games with it.

In the pictures attached I can see both balls are drilled differently and that is my fault for not just bringing in my old ball to let the pro shop just copy it.

Thank you for the quick responses!


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:45 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Without knowing your PAP I am only surmising.
Generally speaking a pin above the bridge on a Symmetrical ball is a low flare with a long slow hook zone. Pin to the right of the ring finger is a high flaring max hook position. The added balance hole on the Crossroad shortens the skid zone. The layout on the Cross Road would be better for a High Tilt or speed dominant bowler. Where Dare Devil's layout would be better for a low Tilt or Rev dominant bowler.
A Dull Surface on the Dare Devil will definitely help. I would try this before re-drilling.

Do you use your thumb?
If the answer is no, it is Not legal to have a thumb hole And a balance hole, it is considered as having 2 balance holes. Should you choose to have it re-drilled and want it to roll similar to the Crossroad, I would suggest using a balance hole located in a position that is half way between the thumb hole and the balance hole on the Crossroad with the pin in the same location.

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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:37 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Okay thanks so much for the replies! When I got my crossroad drilled the pro shop said I had to have a thumb hole even if I was a 2 hander but my palm had to cover it. Not sure if this is still the rule that’s just what he told me when I got it drilled and didn’t think anything of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:13 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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That rule was changed a few years ago. Now if you don't use your thumb you cannot have both a "thumb hole" and a balance hole. Both are considered to be balance holes and it's illegal to have more than one balance hole. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:20 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Oh okay well thank you for the clarification!


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:22 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Also should I consider just getting the thumb hole plugged and getting a balance hole drilled?

I still plan on resurfacing my ball but maybe after that?


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:59 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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bself6 wrote:
So I recently bought the Dare Devil Danger 15 lbs to replace my storm crossroad and I am having a little trouble. I am basically getting 0 hook out of the ball unless I throw in uncomfortably slow.

Coverstock have much bigger effect to ball motion than layout. Especially on symmetrical bowling balls.

This ball comparisation tells that coverstock/factory finish on Dare Devil Danger will react with lane much later than Storm Crossroad (picture also on below):
Attachment:
roto-grip-dare-devil-danger-vs-storm-crossroad.png

So that why adding more surface would be better option. Factory finish is 1500 polished so I would try to use first 1000 grit and if that still does not react enough then 500 grit.

It is also important to notice that plugging and redrilling is one time operation. Surface you can (actually you also need) constantly change based on which kind of reaction you want bowling ball to make.

If 500 grit is too much you can always go back to 1000 grit (or 2000 grit, or 1000 grit + polish, etc...).

bself6 wrote:
I have read a few things that say redrilling is bad for the ball and I have seen a few that says it does not matter.

Effect is so small that you don't need to worry about it. That is proved on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:02 am Post Number: #11 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Coverstock have much bigger effect to ball motion than layout. Especially on symmetrical bowling balls.


Coverstock = Skid Length
Core Shape After Drilling = Hook Zone Shape

I dont know where you got the idea that coverstocks gave a greater affect on symmetrical balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:32 am Post Number: #12 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Coverstock = Skid Length
Core Shape After Drilling = Hook Zone Shape

I dont know where you got the idea that coverstocks gave a greater affect on symmetrical balls.

Did I summarize too much?

My point was anyway that if bowling ball skid too far it cannot hook which sounds to be case here because slowing down speed helps to get ball hook.


And other point was that bowlers should not fear to change bowling ball surface even on every game if that is needed. That does not break ball and it is always possible to polish again too if needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:48 am Post Number: #13 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
And other point was that bowlers should not fear to change bowling ball surface even on every game if that is needed.


USBC rules state surfaces cannot be changed after competition begins. League & Tournament.
It cannot be every game unless its practice.
Please be careful giving advice unless you can factually base it.

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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:20 am Post Number: #14 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

USBC rules state surfaces cannot be changed after competition begins. League & Tournament.
It cannot be every game unless its practice.
Please be careful giving advice unless you can factually base it.

Sorry my ignorance of USBC rules. Here on Finland it is allowed to change ball surface between games.

Anyway, if new bowling ball does not work like expected I would suggest to take practice hour where to test different surfaces.


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:29 am Post Number: #15 Post
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LittleTiger wrote:
Sorry my ignorance of USBC rules. Here on Finland it is allowed to change ball surface between games.

Anyway, if new bowling ball does not work like expected I would suggest to take practice hour where to test different surfaces.


Just for everyones future reference.

2017-2018 USBC Playing Rules
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/2017-2018Rulebook.pdf

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 18.
18/1 When may I alter the surface of my bowling ball?
a. Cleaning – Cleaners approved for use any time may be utilized before, during or after
certified competition; cleaners approved for only before and after competition may only be
used during these times. The use of a ball spinner is prohibited during competition.

b. Sanding – You are permitted to sand the surface of your bowling balls prior to certified
competition; however, the use of abrasives is strictly prohibited once the first ball is thrown
in the competition.

c. Polishing – You are permitted to polish the surface of your bowling ball prior to certified
competition. However, once tournament or league play begins, the use of a ball spinner is
strictly prohibited.

Approved Cleaners and Polishes
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

Non-Approved Cleaners and Polishes
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Non_approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

Note: Certified competition begins when the first ball is rolled for score by "anyone in the league or tournament"

Also you can't use the ball polishing machine (Lustre King) once certified competition begins.

Unless otherwise provided by League or Tournament rules.


World Bowling Statutes and Playing Rules
http://www.worldbowling.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/World-Bowling-Statutes-and-Playing-Rules-Revised-2016-03-31.pdf

4.10 Bowling ball, altering surface

4.10.1 Bowling ball surface adjustments by hand are acceptable between games provided they are
done in the designated area and that the adjustment procedure does not delay the bowler‟s
next turn. Use of chemicals see 2.10.1.

4.10.2
Altering the surface of the bowling ball, besides what is mentioned in 4.10.1, is allowed in a
designated area only during the official practice session, during the practice session
immediately preceding a competition round, and between competition rounds.

Altering the surface of the bowling ball during a game is not allowed.
If the surface is adjusted during a game the penalty is zero pinfall in that game

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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:23 am Post Number: #16 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Coverstock = Skid Length
Core Shape After Drilling = Hook Zone Shape

I dont know where you got the idea that coverstocks gave a greater affect on symmetrical balls.

I got that idea from my earlier experience.

I did now some simulations of this on Powerhouse Blueprint by using delivery parameters: 22 mph of hand, 400 revs, ar 57, at 9. On first picture there is layouts 45x5x30 (pin up) and 60x3 1/2x30 (pin right up) and also this one with big balance hole on VAL line 3 inch below middleline.
On second picture (middle one) there is surface changes with that 45x5x30 layout.
And on third (right one) these is more extreme layout changes together with 500 grit surface.
Attachment:
layout_change_vs_surface_change.png


On asymmetrical bowling balls it is possible to make bigger changes by changing layout but on symmetrical they are quite minor.


EDIT: One more prove, Mo have said that: viewtopic.php?p=64527#p64527
What I mean by saying "Especially on symmetrical bowling balls." is that I'm not 100% sure about strong asymmetrical bowling balls.


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:44 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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bself6 wrote:
Also should I consider just getting the thumb hole plugged and getting a balance hole drilled?

I still plan on resurfacing my ball but maybe after that?


Try changing the surface first, then maybe you won't have to plug the "thumb hole", unless the ball already has a "thumb hole" and balance hole. If it has just a "thumb hole" and you want to consider a balance hole instead I'd plug the "thumb hole" then throw the ball to see how it reacts. Then check the static weights and decide how to proceed. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Redrill or Resurface?
 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:55 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Short answer, try a surface adjustment first, as others have said. More on that later.

Longer answer, it’s a little perplexing on the face of it.

Most of us agree that coverstock/surface IS the most important factor in determining ball motion (I think Mav was thinking of “shape”? Just a guess). I have no reason to believe the DDD cover is less strong than the Crossroad, probably noticeably stronger.

Still, there might be a few factors working against the Daredevil. First, it’s got fresh factory 1500 polish. Looks great and does work for a lot of people but if your Crossroad has some games since being polished it may be at least “scuffed in”. Bought a Storm Code Red this season, I never rolled it at out-of-box (same 1500 polish we’ve been talking about). I like the ball to read a little more.

Combine that with what might be a lower-flare drilling (that question is above my pay grade), could be a double whammy.

A quick scuff by you or your PSO will tell you a lot.


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