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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:26 pm Post Number: #41 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
It seems to me there are various types of full rollers today:

1) Nord: classic full roller, 0* tilt, tracks between thumb and fingers

2) 0* tilt but doesn’t track between thumb and fingers just like jimmydanny or like I used to be when I had 0* axis tilt (I used to track almost clipping the MF)

3) Tom Smallwood: tracks between thumb and fingers but does not have 0* tilt... yes, Mo said it somewhere and I am trying to find where but he said Tom actually has axis tilt so he’s not really a full roller by axis tilt definition but tracks between thumb and fingers.

4) Over rolled full rollers, have actually negative axis tilt

I would someday like to roll someone’s ball that’s laid out full roller to see what it does with my 2.5-5* of tilt. If I like it I may drill myself one without a thumbhole and maybe use an interesting balance hole...

Playing the Smallwood video on youtube at .25x speed lets me see that indeed Smallwood does have a tiny bit of tilt, maybe 1 degree or so. The ball is just ever slightly leaning over to the right as it rolls down the lane.

See the attached screen cap that I took of his ball.
I put lines on it lined up with the spin lines on his ball.


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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:38 pm Post Number: #42 Post
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You can locate your PAP the same way a semi-roller does. Mark your initial track ring, place the ball on your spinner (or on a ball cup if you don't have a spinner) and adjust the ball so the track is horizontal and the side with your PAP is up. If you do have a spinner, turn it on and be sure the track draws a straight line. The PAP will be top dead center of the ball, on a spinner start it spinning and put your finger on top of the ball, the finger will migrate to the PAP. After you have the location, put a piece of white tape on it and throw it to confirm the location. I'm guessing it's going to be about 4" over and 4" up. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:48 pm Post Number: #43 Post
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PAP is PAP, no matter where it is.

Two easy methods to find it:
Throw a shot, then place the ball against another on the ball rack. Then turn it so the first oil ring is perpendicular to the other ball, and center of grip is in the middle of the ball with the oil ring. With this, I mean that it is in center of the line between the two balls. Where the balls touch is your PAP.

Other method starts the same, but requires a ball spinner. Throw the ball, then draw around the first oil ring, and place the ball in the ball spinner. What you want is to get the line you drew to be 100% stable when its spinning. If you then put the pencil on the very top of the ball, thats your PAP.

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    Speed: 15.5 downlane
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    Axis rotation: 30°
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    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:53 pm Post Number: #44 Post
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Here is a quick illustration of the ball rack method for finding your PAP. It is crude, but it works for a close approximate.


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    PAP: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
    Speed: 15.5 downlane
    RPM: 450
    Axis rotation: 30°
    Axis tilt: 0°

    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
    High series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:28 pm Post Number: #45 Post
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But, in reference to what happened when I spun my Judge, why did it process and then stabilize on the spot it did?
You saw the curlicue procession that lead to the stable spot.
Just curious if the ball found its own PAP through pure self balance?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:21 am Post Number: #46 Post
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No, the ball.cant know your PAP. Its named Positive Axis Point, but as a reminder, Personal Axis Point. It's YOURS, only your release gives the exact PAP on that exact ball.

What you find when spinning it would rather be mass bias

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    PAP: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
    Speed: 15.5 downlane
    RPM: 450
    Axis rotation: 30°
    Axis tilt: 0°

    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
    High series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:58 pm Post Number: #47 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
PAP is PAP, no matter where it is.

Two easy methods to find it:
Throw a shot, then place the ball against another on the ball rack. Then turn it so the first oil ring is perpendicular to the other ball, and center of grip is in the middle of the ball with the oil ring. With this, I mean that it is in center of the line between the two balls. Where the balls touch is your PAP.


Note: The first oil ring is "Parallel" to the other ball not "perpendicular". Also you don't need the center of grip in any particular place, It's just needed when you go to get location measurements to write them down.

For a couple of other simple methods of locating the PAP, watch this video at about the 3:30 mark.

Don Johnson's A Pro's Guide to Better Bowling Vol 2


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:24 pm Post Number: #48 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
No, the ball.cant know your PAP. Its named Positive Axis Point, but as a reminder, Personal Axis Point. It's YOURS, only your release gives the exact PAP on that exact ball.
What you find when spinning it would rather be mass bias

But I thought with Classic Full Rollers, we all have the PAP in the same identical location since our ball track is identical?
My Judge is a Symmetric ball, I thought only Asymmetric balls have a Mass Bias?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:49 pm Post Number: #49 Post
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Nord wrote:
But I thought with Classic Full Rollers, we all have the PAP in the same identical location since our ball track is identical?


A persons Positive Axis Point (P.A.P.) in relation to their grip is specific to their particular release characteristics.

While Classic Full Rollers may all track between the finger and thumb holes, That track doesn't necessarily pass through there at the same angle in relation to the grip centerline as someone elses.

That difference will cause a different P.A.P. location measurement for each individual (unless of course someone just happens to roll it exactly the same as someone else.

example the full roller on the left would have a different pap location measurement than the one on the right:
Attachment:
example fttrk.jpg


Quote:
My Judge is a Symmetric ball, I thought only Asymmetric balls have a Mass Bias?


All Symmetrical balls after you drill them become Asymmetric balls to some extent and thus have a PSA (Preferred Spin Axis aka: Mass Bias)


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Last edited by bowl1820 on Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:53 pm Post Number: #50 Post
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If the track is truly identical the PAP location will be the same. After drilling every ball has a mass bias. If you do find your PAP I'd be interested to see the coordinates. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:51 am Post Number: #51 Post
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JohnP wrote:
If the track is truly identical the PAP location will be the same. After drilling every ball has a mass bias. If you do find your PAP I'd be interested to see the coordinates. -- JohnP

Below is a photo of the flare pattern (no pattern, always a single stripe!) on my Grizz Urethane after a strike throw.
Where would my PAP be?

Also, I have read for Semi-Rollers that a pin in axis (Pin in PAP?) layout will produce the heaviest and earliest roll for a ball.
Basically the ball will spin around the axis and not flare.
The ball will be perfectly stable and will go right into the roll phase and have virtually zero backend.
Is there such a layout for Full Rollers and what would it look like?


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_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:18 am Post Number: #52 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
Here is a quick illustration of the ball rack method for finding your PAP. It is crude, but it works for a close approximate.

Sorry, I missed this great diagram!
Thanks!
This is wonderful, I will give it a try with my Grizz since it only has one flare line and is easy to see where that line is so I can find my PAP.

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:41 pm Post Number: #53 Post
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Nord wrote:
Below is a photo of the flare pattern (no pattern, always a single stripe!) on my Grizz Urethane after a strike throw.
Where would my PAP be?

Also, I have read for Semi-Rollers that a pin in axis (Pin in PAP?) layout will produce the heaviest and earliest roll for a ball.
Basically the ball will spin around the axis and not flare.
The ball will be perfectly stable and will go right into the roll phase and have virtually zero backend.
Is there such a layout for Full Rollers and what would it look like?


Your PAP will be located right of and above the finger holes. Draw a line perpendicular to your track and through the grip center, the PAP will be located somewhere on that line. Turn the ball about 90 degrees along the track and draw another line perpendicular to the track. Use a flexible ruler to draw the two lines and line the small end of the ruler up with the track to get your perpendicular line. The PAP will be located where the two lines intersect. For a non-flaring ball I don't think the layout makes a bit of difference. The main purpose of "full roller layouts" is to avoid flaring over the holes. If the core doesn't create any flare why would it make any difference where you put the pin and cg (other than for static weight legality)? -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:53 pm Post Number: #54 Post
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JohnP wrote:
The main purpose of "full roller layouts" is to avoid flaring over the holes. If the core doesn't create any flare why would it make any difference where you put the pin and cg (other than for static weight legality)? -- JohnP

Thank you for your help in locating my PAP.
As I mentioned earlier I am curious how a pin in PAP (Pin in Axis) drilling would work for a Full Roller.
I assume the pin would go right in my PAP?
But where should we put the CG?
How long a pin is best to start with?

The goal is: a ball that has the lowest possible RG for its core, is totally stable in its spin and does not flare.
I am thinking of trying this on a very strong coverstock urethane ball.
Something that will roll very early and go very straight.
A down and in piece.
I really love my Grizz reaction, early and controlled, but its cover stock is just not strong enough unless the volume gets pretty low, or I play in the dry with it.
I would like a similar Grizz motion from a much stronger ball that I can be on, or slightly inside of second arrow with on house shots so I am in the oil the whole way.

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:34 pm Post Number: #55 Post
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The PAP positions that should give you very little if any flare are on the PAP, on the NAP (negative axis point, 180 degrees from the PAP), and 6 3/4" from either the PAP or NAP. On the PAP or NAP position the core laying down, 6 3/4" from either the PAP or the NAP position the core vertically, both are stable positions. Select a ball with a pin-out and top weight that will allow you to avoid using a balance hole that could cause flare. Note that I've never drilled a ball like I've described, this is all theory, if you try it let us know how it works. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:26 pm Post Number: #56 Post
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JohnP wrote:
The PAP positions that should give you very little if any flare are on the PAP, on the NAP (negative axis point, 180 degrees from the PAP), and 6 3/4" from either the PAP or NAP. On the PAP or NAP position the core laying down, 6 3/4" from either the PAP or the NAP position the core vertically, both are stable positions. Select a ball with a pin-out and top weight that will allow you to avoid using a balance hole that could cause flare. Note that I've never drilled a ball like I've described, this is all theory, if you try it let us know how it works. -- JohnP

Here is what I have read about the Pin in Axis drilling:

"Pin axis is the ultimate ROLLY layout. The core is in its stable end position when the ball leaves the hand, it is DEAD. Can be a choice for outside lines, but I found axis drillings tricky. While such a ball does not overreact at all and blends out wet/dry conditions, the early roll depletes energy easily."

I was thinking a strong urethane coverstock ball with this drilling would allow maximum down and in control.
Then I would simply adjust surface to prevent rollout.
I am thinking a Crow would be ideal to try this on.
You mentioned get a pin length that would prevent the need for a balance hole.
How long a pin?
Would a longer pin allow the CG to be moved to a position that would keep the static weights legal?
How critical is the location of the CG with this drilling?

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:45 pm Post Number: #57 Post
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To see more about Pin axis Go to Youtube and search Phoenix Ball Balancing (Axis balance), That's their bread and butter.

Their basic idea is flare makes a ball hard to control for most people, So they layout and drill the balls not to flare (or as they put it, not to wobble) aka: drill the guts out of the ball.

here's two of their latest videos

Traditional Axis Balance Layout


Modern Axis Balance Layout



Axis Balance-example roll
In a dynamically balanced bowling ball, the axis of roll migrates during the ball's roll, but the PAP remains the same point on the ball, Watch as this ball with an asymmetric core displays a consistent trajectory and keeps the same PAP during all three phases of the trajectory.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:05 am Post Number: #58 Post
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Quote:
Their basic idea is flare makes a ball hard to control for most people, So they layout and drill the balls not to flare (or as they put it, not to wobble) aka: drill the guts out of the ball.

You have just described my life's story!
It wasn't until I started to use my Grizz that I realized how much ball dynamics were affecting my control.
This is why I want to give a Pin in Axis layout a shot.
Great videos.
It seems they can do this with either a symmetric, or asymmetric bowling ball.
I emailed them about adapting their layout for Full Roller.
Hopefully they reply.
Thank you for turning me on to this.

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:29 pm Post Number: #59 Post
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Sorry, I use the Center of Grip to be certain I have the ball the correct way, don't need to find the NAP lol

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    PAP: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
    Speed: 15.5 downlane
    RPM: 450
    Axis rotation: 30°
    Axis tilt: 0°

    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
    High series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:49 pm Post Number: #60 Post
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Quote:
You mentioned get a pin length that would prevent the need for a balance hole.
How long a pin? It would take a very long pin-out and a low top weight. Your PAP is probably going to be 8" or further from grip center. Look for a "Pro CG" ball with at least a 6" pin-out and less than 2 1/2 oz of top weight. There aren't many balls that fit that criteria, your pro shop operator can help you with that more than I can.
Would a longer pin allow the CG to be moved to a position that would keep the static weights legal?
How critical is the location of the CG with this drilling? The static weights after drilling have to meet USBC standards. CG location is critical only to meeting the weight limits without using a balance hole.


You really need to work with your PSO, he can locate your PAP and draw the proposed layout on a ball. Then he'll be able to determine more accurately the ball specs needed. -- JohnP


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