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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:30 pm Post Number: #101 Post
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Nord wrote:
Then all the different balls with their different core materials and cover surfaces of different hardness's and COR are not a factor?

Core is length of hook zone, cover is length of skid zone.
COR is a factor, but balls manufactured today are very similar.


When a Hammer ball that has the graphite/kevlar makes that loud crack sound and a storm ball does not, that is not something different?

Sound has nothing to do with it.

When one ball keeps the pins low and another fly's them into the air, that has nothing to do with the material the ball is made from?

"Keeps the pins low", no idea where that came from. Pins dont fly in the air, no matter the ball the pin's center of gravity remains the same. The impact point remains the same, unless the ball bounces. Gravity keeps the pins low not the ball.

Also, since the Bowling Academy determined that entry angle does not matter for a strike, then I guess really any ball will do.
Correct?

Incorrect.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... remmel.pdf



Color coded for your pleasure.
I think you have some reading to do in the wiki.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:55 am Post Number: #102 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Also, since the Bowling Academy determined that entry angle does not matter for a strike, then I guess really any ball will do.
Correct?

Incorrect.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... remmel.pdf


Better watch this then because they are saying clearly that their tests show that entry angle does not matter at all.
https://youtu.be/t3X7qebrLME

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:24 pm Post Number: #103 Post
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Nord wrote:
Better watch this then because they are saying clearly that their tests show that entry angle does not matter at all.
https://youtu.be/t3X7qebrLME


That is not what they are saying that entry angle doesn't help with carry. They are generealising things that when you hit the 17.5 (high flush) then the entry angle doesn't mean as much since you are very likeley to strike anyway (85% is a combined value of 0 degree entry angle to 10 degree entry angle) As you move away from high flush the entry angle would come more and more of a factor to increase carry.

What they are saying however is that there is a correllation between strikes and 9 count depending on what board you are at the pocket irrelevant of what the entry angle is. The entry angle would still hold a higher strike percantage in most cases as you can clearly see in their own study https://bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equipmen ... rryStudy(1).pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:34 pm Post Number: #104 Post
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gunso wrote:

That is not what they are saying that entry angle doesn't help with carry. They are generealising things that when you hit the 17.5 (high flush) then the entry angle doesn't mean as much since you are very likeley to strike anyway (85% is a combined value of 0 degree entry angle to 10 degree entry angle) As you move away from high flush the entry angle would come more and more of a factor to increase carry.

What they are saying however is that there is a correlation between strikes and 9 count depending on what board you are at the pocket irrelevant of what the entry angle is. The entry angle would still hold a higher strike percantage in most cases as you can clearly see in their own study https://bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equipmen ... rryStudy(1).pdf

This PDF was just a slide show for their presentation, it did not actually have any detailed content.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:14 pm Post Number: #105 Post
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Nord wrote:
Better watch this then because they are saying clearly that their tests show that entry angle does not matter at all. https://youtu.be/t3X7qebrLME


1. Gunso is right in that video they meant regardless of what entry angle the ball came in at, If you hit the 17.5 board "pocket" you were more likely to strike not that entry angle didn't matter at all.

Later in the usbc study they determined what was the best entry angle going into that 17.5 board "pocket" that gave the most strikes and that angle was 6° . That short video just didn't go into that aspect of it.

Note: The 17.5 board "pocket" is actually defined as a 2.5" offset from the center of the headpin and they just call that location the 17.5 board.

2. The loud crack sound, I know what your referring to.

Some balls when they hit produced a loud crack like sound, like when a bat hit a baseball in just the right way (Years back I heard it described as sounding like a .22 firing.) vs the usual ball hitting the pins sound you typically hear.

And when that happened the pins seemed to have a lot more velocity, they bounced around the deck and into the air hitting the sidewalls more, Their motion was more energetic (Which is what players refer to as "Pins Flying" as opposed to "the pins low" where they are just falling over, rolling around on the deck).

Now what caused that different sound? There were two possible explanations (or combination of both) I've heard over the years.

A. The ball hit the pins just after it went into it's roll, when it had it's max energy.
B. It was the materials the ball were made of, two piece vs three piece, the "Coefficient of Restitution".

You heard the sound a lot more with the old two piece balls, made back when the (ABC's) COR limit was higher (it's lower today and most balls are closer together in cor ).

Nord you might want to look at this old article, It goes along with your idea about the True Motion I believe. It talks about how the ceramic cores pushed the COR up.

Attachment:
The Hardness of the Inner Core of the Bowling Ball.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:26 pm Post Number: #106 Post
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Nord wrote:
This PDF was just a slide show for their presentation, it did not actually have any detailed content.


Here:
Ball Motion Study: Phase I and II Final Report
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/08ballmotionstudy.pdf

Excerpt:
" The Equipment & Specifications Department within the United States Bowling Congress is responsible for setting and governing the specification limits of all equipment and machinery used in the sport. Their research has conclusively shown that increased entry angle into the pins directly relates to better pin carry and, thereby, higher scores."


Identifying the Critical Factors That Contribute to Bowling Ball Motion on a Bowling Lane
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/ASQBallMotionPresentation.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:07 pm Post Number: #107 Post
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Nice article on COR.
That is the idea behind the Dynamicore outer/inner core of the True Motion.
It is supposed to give it the hitting power of a two piece ball.
My hope is it will hit much harder than the Grizz and produce much more pin action.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:52 pm Post Number: #108 Post
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Don't let marketing fool you. There is no noticeable difference in pin carry within the usbc limits on COR. Dynamicore is similiar marketing as the hypershock "technology". just marketing


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:01 am Post Number: #109 Post
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Ok, below are some pics of the final drilled "True Motion."
It did require a balance hole to keep it legal as the ball had over an ounce of Finger weight.
The PSO put the CG slightly down from the line that was leading from the PAP to the grip center.
He did this to reduce some of the Finger weight.
He then drilled directly into the pin, 3 inches deep, one bit size at a time, weighed and then went larger in bit size until he got the ball legal.

Final static weights are: 1/2 oz Thumb and 7/8 oz Finger Weight.
I then put some tape across the balance hole so we could watch the ball as it went down the lane.
He got me a lane and sat with me as I tried it out.
If I released the ball well, that tape was totally stable.
Even on bad releases it barely moved.
There was a tendency for the ball to roll over the thumbhole if I released it wrong.
Sometimes it seemed like there were two closely spaced flare lines.
I wonder if the ball is flaring towards the thumb with this layout, rather than away from it.
I will check the flare once I have time to do more bowling with it.
The ball at stock grit of 500/1000 was way, way too weak.
Maybe with a normal or high flare layout the stock grit would be ok, but with the Axis Weight drilling this higher grit was just not enough ball, especially for urethane.
Remember, this ball uses an original late 80's urethane formulation, not the much higher traction modern urethane formulations like the Black Widow and Crow have.
On Kearny's Brunswick Anvilane it had to be put directly in the dry, up 7, or it would not grip.
The PSO hit it quickly with 500 grit and that made it a little better.
But even then it still seemed too weak and late.
I then used a hand pad and quickly dry swirled it with 500 grit and that made it much better.

This ball is a whole different world of ball motion.
Rather than call it the "True Motion" it should now be called the "No Motion!"
That heavy core spinning around the axis makes this ball not want to move off its initial release path.
The coverstock is fighting to move it, but the spinning core is like a gyro keeping the ball going straight.
It's pretty weird.
Much different than the Grizz which will arc a fair amount in a smooth way.
So with the free lane, I began my experimentation of different lines to see what would work best and try and understand how this ball was moving.
I eventually found two lines to the pocket that would carry on this lane.
The first line was right foot on 13 rolling directly up 8.
This would carry if I made a good shot, but if I missed a little right, it would hold off and come in light.
I left four 5-7 splits this way and guess what?
I converted every one of them by just moving my foot two left and using the same strike target!
I have never done anything like that before, this ball is amazingly accurate.
The second strike line that was much better was, right foot on 10 playing over 9 down and in.
The ball would go perfectly straight and just reliably arc subtly into the pocket and hit high flush and simply kill the pins.
Dynamicore in action?
If I missed a tad right, I still got the same hit and carry.
If I missed inside, then it would go high with a risk of a split or still hit the pocket but leave the ten pin.
With both lines I had to be Billy Hardwick dead eye accurate though.
It was very challenging.
But, the ball never overreacted on any shot, it just reliably went perfectly straight, transitioning from skid, to hook, to roll, in a straight line.
Also this ball went so straight, that I moved my ten pin foot starting position 5 boards right and could still hit the ten pin dead on with no fear it would hook away left.
Buckets and other center and slightly left pins required me to stand further right and go straighter as the ball would not hook left at all into them.
This ball was truly a different experience, like a spare ball that rolls.
I did not have to throw the ball very fast at all, but it still hit very hard since all that momentum was dead forward, rather than out right and back.
I can imagine a very consistent and accurate bowler could use this ball to deadly effect.
Once I got home I got a brand new 500 grit pad and aggressively wet swirl sanded the ball over 4 sides.
Hopefully this will give it a little earlier read and a tad more miss room right and left.
I will try to get a video up soon showing the unique action of this ball.

Below are pics of the layout on the ball:


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:36 pm Post Number: #110 Post
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Nord wrote:
This ball is a whole different world of ball motion.
Rather than call it the "True Motion" it should now be called the "No Motion!"


Which is basically what that layout was supposed to do, take all the guts of the ball.

Quote:
This ball was truly a different experience, like a spare ball that rolls.


Is that what you wanted though?

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:51 pm Post Number: #111 Post
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Nord wrote:
Final static weights are: 1/2 oz Thumb and 7/8 oz Finger Weight.


That's impossible! Do you mean 7/8 SIDE wgt.?


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:44 pm Post Number: #112 Post
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I suppose the finger weight after drilling was high enough that the driller couldn't take it out by drilling the finger holes deeper.

Re. hitting the thumb hole - Yes, if the ball flares with the pin in a high and right position it will flare toward both the thumb and finger holes. The purpose of putting the pin low and left for a full roller is to make the flare go the other way. But if the ball doesn't flare, which was the purpose of the layout, it will stay on the original track between the holes. With the pin on the PAP it shouldn't flare, but the balance hole screwed that up. -- JohnP


Last edited by JohnP on Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:17 am Post Number: #113 Post
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I think a better job could have been done trying to balance the statics.
I'm with imagonman, what you stated for final statics is impossible.
You can't have finger and thumb weight.
I would plug the hole on your axis with a white plug so you can see your PAP and put the hole in a place that would balance the statics better. I thought you were looking for a ball that was balanced.

What was the top weight of the ball before and after drilling?

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:26 am Post Number: #114 Post
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Now I am confused.
He did say 1/2 thumb and 7/8 finger, but maybe he meant 7/8 side.
I think he meant side because I remember him saying the ball had 1 1/2 oz positive side that he had to get down below 1 oz.
He said he could go to exactly 1 oz side but he said that some competitive scales might read that higher, so to be safe he always goes below 1 oz.
The ball started with 2.5 oz top and a 3 1/2" pin.
Neither of us knew anything about how to do this layout, especially for a Full Roller.
Maybe this layout cannot be done for a Full Roller.
I asked Ron Machniak about it and here is what he said and we just followed his instructions:

Quote:
So goal = Low Flare (Zero is a whole different level) ball that rolls smooth.

I would not worry about the statics, as long as they are legal. A long pin medium to lower top weight ball with a urethane cover (like the TRUE MOTION) will work just fine. I wouldn't try to over-complicate it by worrying where the ending cg is. Just put the pin on axis and the cg legal and bowl.

capiche?

Ron :)

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:27 pm Post Number: #115 Post
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Nord wrote:
Now I am confused.
He did say 1/2 thumb and 7/8 finger, but maybe he meant 7/8 side.
I think he meant side because I remember him saying the ball had 1 1/2 oz positive side that he had to get down below 1 oz.
He said he could go to exactly 1 oz side but he said that some competitive scales might read that higher, so to be safe he always goes below 1 oz.
The ball started with 2.5 oz top and a 3 1/2" pin.


If the side weight started at 1.5oz and it's now 7/8oz, then he removed 5/8oz.
Going by the weight removal chart, to remove 5/8oz. The hole should be 1.25" deep, Dia. 7/8"
If the hole is close to that size, then that's probably 7/8 side W.

Quote:
Neither of us knew anything about how to do this layout, especially for a Full Roller.


In that case you should have delayed drilling and researched more.


Since you based this off the Phoenix Ball Balancing stuff, I've looked at the help file of their software.

Having a balance hole on the PAP is a option, but you had to layout the ball properly.
(Their software appears to calculate gripping hole depth, to remove weight in the right way to use the balance hole in the PAP to balance the weights right. plus you probably should have placed the cg on the line to the center of grip as the instructions said to)


"Drilling Option 3: Computer Calculates Axis Weight – Balance Hole at Axis Point
Select this option to get a ball with axis weight that is beyond the maximum allowed by the USBC. Then bring the ball into the USBC specifications by drilling a balance hole. The directions that the computer gives for laying out the ball for drilling gripping holes will cause the ball to be imbalanced in just the right proportions for side weight, finger weight, and top weight that the balance hole required to make the ball legal will be located at the PAP. Once drilled, the computer will tell you how deep to drill a selected drill bit to achieve the desired results. Balls drilled in this manner will provide visual feedback as the ball rolls."


Now a regular Balance hole can be used , but the software tells you just where to put it.

Balance hole on pin axis ball
Attachment:
pinaxisbalhole.JPG


Phoenix ball Balancing software demo
Note there is a free demo on http://phoenixballbalancing.com/ But on my computer windows7 I had to go on my Cdrive and launch the program from there, It didn't install a start menu shortcut.

So if you got it going and punched in all your info it might just show you how to do it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:11 am Post Number: #116 Post
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If I installed the free software and had a ball with a certain top weight and pin length could it figure out what I should have done?
Let's take this True Motion that this forum says we totally screwed up.
Tell me how it should have been drilled.
It had exactly a 3 1/2" pin and 2.5 oz of top weight.
I am a Full Roller.
I use a conventional grip.
My PAP is 6 3/16" right and 2 5/8" up.
My middle finger span is 3 5/16" and my ring finger span is 3 7/16".
Fingers are spaced 3/8" apart.
How should it have been drilled?

I could try again with a new ball if there was some guarantee that there was some way to exactly figure out how to do a proper Axis Weight layout that is balanced.
No one seems to know anything about this layout and the inventor is dead.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:51 am Post Number: #117 Post
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Nord wrote:
If I installed the free software and had a ball with a certain top weight and pin length could it figure out what I should have done?
Let's take this True Motion that this forum says we totally screwed up.
Tell me how it should have been drilled.
It had exactly a 3 1/2" pin and 2.5 oz of top weight.
I am a Full Roller.
I use a conventional grip.
My PAP is 6 3/16" right and 2 5/8" up.
My middle finger span is 3 5/16" and my ring finger span is 3 7/16".
Fingers are spaced 3/8" apart.
How should it have been drilled?

I could try again with a new ball if there was some guarantee that there was some way to exactly figure out how to do a proper Axis Weight layout that is balanced.
No one seems to know anything about this layout and the inventor is dead.

Balls have different shaped cores, so there is no way a generic "finger holes take out this much weight or a balance hole takes out this much weight" has any validity. The amount of weight removed will vary according to where the finger holes hit the core/ the density of the core/ shape/weight of the shell/ weight of the filler/weight of the ball/etc. I would not worry so much about all the nuances. Put the pin close to your PAP if that is what you are after and and the CG or PSA at a 90* to your VAL. Depending on the top wt and pin distance of the ball you choose will determine the balance hole and your driller did it exactly like I would recommend (taking a little out at a time). Don't put too much emphasis on the finished balance as long as it is legal.
I think your best bet for what you are trying to accomplish, would be to use a ball which is programed into Blueprint software and either get someone who has puchased it to help you or download the free trial.

This might help you to see what you are trying to do. Scroll down in this article to the "Orientation of the Core". just above that, there are 3 computer images showing the ball rolling. What you are doing is orienting the core similar to the first image. http://news.stormbowling.com/author/alexhoskins/


Last edited by elgavachon on Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:51 am Post Number: #118 Post
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Nord wrote:
If I installed the free software and had a ball with a certain top weight and pin length could it figure out what I should have done?


As for the software I've never used it, So I can can't say what all it would do.

Quote:
Let's take this True Motion that this forum says we totally screwed up.

I don't believe anyone said you totally screwed up. The main issue just appears to be the statics you quoted, Which I believe is just a miscommunication.

You said "If I released the ball well, that tape was totally stable. Even on bad releases it barely moved." Going by that statement it sounds like the ball is doing what it was suppose to do.

So if your happy with the results, then there's no problem.

Quote:
I could try again with a new ball if there was some guarantee that there was some way to exactly figure out how to do a proper Axis Weight layout that is balanced.


Here's another layout sheet about it from lanemasters.
Attachment:
LM_Ball Drilling Instructions_17_1.jpg


Quote:
No one seems to know anything about this layout and the inventor is dead.

I don't know that he invented pin on axis, It's a old layout that's been around a long time and it's not used much, That's why there's not much info on it now.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:00 am Post Number: #119 Post
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I tried to download the 3 images I was talking about. Simulation of what the core looks like rolling according to how close or far the pin is from your PAP:

http://news.stormbowling.com/wp-content ... ball00.gif
http://news.stormbowling.com/wp-content ... l338-1.gif
http://news.stormbowling.com/wp-content ... all634.gif

Your layout is figure 1.1


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:08 am Post Number: #120 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Balls have different shaped cores, so there is no way a generic "finger holes take out this much weight or a balance hole takes out this much weight" has any validity. The amount of weight removed will vary according to where the finger holes hit the core/ the density of the core/ shape/weight of the shell/ weight of the filler/weight of the ball/etc.


Looking through the Phoenix stuff they basically said that same thing in part of it.

"Because of the huge variations in densities among balls and even at different locations on the same ball, the program can only give approximate values for hole depths."

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