Board index » General Forums » Ball Talk




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:29 pm Post Number: #81 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3220
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Nord, What is your PAP measurement?

I have done the Pin axis drilling with top weight, finger weight and side weight equalling zero. I put it on a Teal Rhino back in the day.
I called it my Zero drilling, zero flare and zero static weight imbalances.

I still have the ball and will post some pics in a few days when I can dig it out of storage.
I utilized a balance hole on a line from grip center through my PAP, 9" from the grip center to take out side weight and bottom weight. In this drilling the Cg as also on the line from grip center to the pin. My PAP at the time as very close to grip midline so finger-thumb was very close to balanced.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:52 pm Post Number: #82 Post
Offline
Trusted Source

Joined: January 30, 2010
Posts: 3360
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Reputation: 276
Reputation Power: 3
Quote:
So just plug your PAP Measurements into a right angle calculator and you'll get that measurement.


Remember, you're working with spherical geometry, not plane geometry. And however you drill it it has to be legal by USBC static weight limits when you finish. -- JohnP


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:47 pm Post Number: #83 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
Nord, What is your PAP measurement?

I have done the Pin axis drilling with top weight, finger weight and side weight equalling zero. I put it on a Teal Rhino back in the day.
I called it my Zero drilling, zero flare and zero static weight imbalances.

I still have the ball and will post some pics in a few days when I can dig it out of storage.
I utilized a balance hole on a line from grip center through my PAP, 9" from the grip center to take out side weight and bottom weight. In this drilling the Cg as also on the line from grip center to the pin. My PAP at the time as very close to grip midline so finger-thumb was very close to balanced.


I am taking the ball in tonight and will share all this information with my PSO.
I found my PAP as you saw from the video and measured from the center of the grip to the center of the PAP and it is just slightly under 6 3/4", closer to 6 1/2".
He was trying to order a ball with a real long pin so we could make sure to get the CG as close to the center of the grip as possible.

But this is our goal: To put the Pin on the PAP and balance the static weights around that axis point so the ball is perfectly balanced.

My Grizz has a pancake weight block and has CG directly in the grip center so that ball is perfectly balanced as you could see in my video of it going down the lane with my PAP marker. Its ball motion is exactly as is shown in the Phoenix Ball Balance video. That is why I chose the Brunswick True Motion as the ball do this layout on. It has the same coverstock as the Grizz, which I like very much, but has the Dynamicore filler which should give it more pop at the pins. Hopefully a Super Grizz!

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:20 pm Post Number: #84 Post
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: July 9, 2012
Posts: 1321
Location: Central Florida
Reputation: 453
Reputation Power: 5
JohnP wrote:

Remember, you're working with spherical geometry, not plane geometry. JohnP


The measurements still comes out the same, use the measurements in the video and compare.

In the one video the pap was 5>1^ he used 5 1/16 (5.0625)

The hypotenuse for the right triangle based on those numbers is 5 3/32 ( 5.099)

in the other the pap was 4 3/4>.5^ he used used 4 3/4 (4.75)

The hypotenuse for the right triangle based on those numbers is 4 49/64 ( 4.77)

_________________
Click my green + rep button if this helps!
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:03 pm Post Number: #85 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
Preface:
I am doing the Axis Weight drilling on a symmetric ball, a Brunswick True Motion.
The pin will be put into the PAP and the CG placed on the line towards the center grip point.
My exact Full Roller PAP is 6 3/16" right by 2 5/8" up.

Question:
If some static imbalance remains, where do you drill the balance hole to zero out the ball?
The goal is all static weights will be zero.

FYI:
We weighed my Grizz ball tonight when we were calculating the PAP.
The Grizz is perfectly zero'd in all static weights!

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:41 am Post Number: #86 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3220
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Nord wrote:
Question:
If some static imbalance remains, where do you drill the balance hole to zero out the ball?
The goal is all static weights will be zero.

It all depends on where you have a static weight imbalance.
If you have side and top weight to take out 9" from grip center on the midline. As I did on my Teal Rhino.
If you only have side weight imbalance a hole on your PAP will do it.
If your driller is competent he will easily be able to balance the static weight to zero. You are working with a zero flare drilling so it will be simple to keep a balance hole off the track.

It all depends on the original top weight and Pin to Cg distance. If you can get a ball with a 4" pin to Cg and 2 oz top weight you will probably end up with side, finger and bottom weight to balance out.
A hole 9" from grip center on the line through your PAP will take out side, finger and bottom weight.

Low top weight 2 oz or less as well as a long Pin to Cg 4"+will serve you well for this endeavor.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:06 am Post Number: #87 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
It all depends on where you have a static weight imbalance.
If you have side and top weight to take out 9" from grip center on the midline. As I did on my Teal Rhino.
If you only have side weight imbalance a hole on your PAP will do it.
If your driller is competent he will easily be able to balance the static weight to zero. You are working with a zero flare drilling so it will be simple to keep a balance hole off the track.

It all depends on the original top weight and Pin to Cg distance. If you can get a ball with a 4" pin to Cg and 2 oz top weight you will probably end up with side, finger and bottom weight to balance out.
A hole 9" from grip center on the line through your PAP will take out side, finger and bottom weight.

Low top weight 2 oz or less as well as a long Pin to Cg 4"+will serve you well for this endeavor.

What diameter and depth should the balance hole be to start out?

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:14 am Post Number: #88 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3220
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Nord wrote:
What diameter and depth should the balance hole be to start out?

Again that will depend on the static weight after you have drilled your grip.
You are going to want to keep it shallow so as not to drill into the core and create Asymmetry that you are trying to stay away from with this drilling.
Keeping the fingers and thumb shallow as possible, keeping them from hitting much of the core will also help.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:41 am Post Number: #89 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
Again that will depend on the static weight after you have drilled your grip.
You are going to want to keep it shallow so as not to drill into the core and create Asymmetry that you are trying to stay away from with this drilling.
Keeping the fingers and thumb shallow as possible, keeping them from hitting much of the core will also help.

Interesting.
Ok, we will keep the fingers and thumb as shallow as possible as well as the balance hole.
Thank you very, very much for this help.
We had to order another ball with a longer pin.
So we will drill it up this Friday.
In the meantime I left the Grizz with him, he is going to make a mold of the thumbhole which is the best fitting thumbhole I have on a ball.
This way the new True Motion will be identical to the Grizz in feel which is my best feeling ball.

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:32 pm Post Number: #90 Post
Offline
Trusted Source

Joined: January 30, 2010
Posts: 3360
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Reputation: 276
Reputation Power: 3
Remember, static weights, so long as USBC legal, have little affect on ball performance. Balance holes can have a significant affect on flare and thus on ball performance. If I had to choose between achieving a static weight balance around the PAP by using a balance hole and not being balanced around the PAP with no balance hole (so long as the weights are legal), for what you want I'd avoid the balance hole. At the very least, take the ball out on the lane and throw it before you punch the balance hole. -- JohnP


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:16 pm Post Number: #91 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
JohnP wrote:
Remember, static weights, so long as USBC legal, have little affect on ball performance. Balance holes can have a significant affect on flare and thus on ball performance. If I had to choose between achieving a static weight balance around the PAP by using a balance hole and not being balanced around the PAP with no balance hole (so long as the weights are legal), for what you want I'd avoid the balance hole. At the very least, take the ball out on the lane and throw it before you punch the balance hole. -- JohnP

I was thinking the same thing John.
I put the pin in the PAP and the CG as close to the grip center as the length of the pin will allow.
Then measure the static weights and if they are legal, leave it alone.
Then go to the lanes and video the PAP movement to see if it is stable and if the ball reacts in the predicable way I desire.
If it does, then I am done, enjoy my ball.
If it is unstable and flares, then back to the drawing board...

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:23 pm Post Number: #92 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 4282
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 940
Reputation Power: 10
Nord wrote:
Then go to the lanes and video the PAP movement to see if it is stable and if the ball reacts in the predicable way I desire.
If it does, then I am done, enjoy my ball.
If it is unstable and flares, then back to the drawing board...


Why do you want the ball to NOT flare?
Someone like you with a 150 rev rate, you should want as much fresh ball surface as possible.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:46 pm Post Number: #93 Post
Offline
Certified Coach
User avatar

Joined: March 10, 2013
Posts: 242
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway
Reputation: 30
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

Why do you want the ball to NOT flare?
Someone like you with a 150 rev rate, you should want as much fresh ball surface as possible.

I was wondering the same thing... Low rev rate players get the most out of modern equipment compared to high rev.

_________________
    PAP: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
    Speed: 15.5 downlane
    RPM: 450
    Axis rotation: 30°
    Axis tilt: 0°

    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
    High series: 756


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:55 pm Post Number: #94 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 4282
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 940
Reputation Power: 10
jimmydanny wrote:
I was wondering the same thing... Low rev rate players get the most out of modern equipment compared to high rev.


All of this talk about static weight tuning on 3 piece blocks makes me want to break out a Bee Gees album on vinyl.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:00 pm Post Number: #95 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

All of this talk about static weight tuning on 3 piece blocks makes me want to break out a Bee Gees album on vinyl.

I love the Bee Gees...

How deep is your love,
How deep is your love
I really mean to learn
'Cause we're living in a world of fools
Breaking us down
When they all should let us be
We belong to you and me

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:13 pm Post Number: #96 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:

Why do you want the ball to NOT flare?
Someone like you with a 150 rev rate, you should want as much fresh ball surface as possible.

Good question.
Here is my long answer:

I have many balls with different layouts, some high flare, a few low flare and some in the middle.
Some reactive, some urethane.
I have tried pretty much everything over the years trying to see what works best for my release specs and the types of oil patterns I bowl on.
Recently I picked up a 1989 Brunswick Grizz urethane ball that uses the old Rhino urethane coverstock.
I got this ball for fun and nostalgia and would use it on occasion in league just for fun.
The Grizz does not flare at all and has a simple CG in grip center layout.
Strangely I bowl better with this ball than all my other balls and I score consistently higher with this ball than all the others.
I wondered why this was and then someone on this forum pointed out the idea of the Axis Weight drilling and the ball theories of Phoenix Ball Balancing.
Their basic concept is that a ball that is balanced around the axis and does not flare, is stable in its movement down the lane and will not amplify release mistakes the way a flaring and dynamic ball will.
Additionally, a balanced ball will not be a victim of poor lane conditions and over/under effects like a flaring dynamic ball will.

I saw an example of this Monday in league.
I tried to use my Rack Attack at 1000 grit at Parkway bowl and it simply would not hook at all.
I then tried to use my Purple Hammer at 2000 grit and it was totally over/under.
If I rolled it in the oil it would not hook, if I rolled it right of second arrow it was too strong and crossed over.
I closed the first game barely hitting exactly my average.
For games 2 and 3 I pulled out the Grizz at 500 grit and could just roll it up 9 and it would get down the lane and gently come in.
Flawless control.
I was able to bowl over average on the last 2 games because of that control.
This was a vindication for me of their theories that a stable ball is best.
I have used the Grizz on many other occasions when nothing is going right and the lanes are acting weird and it always seems to ignore all that and just roll true.
I decided to test this theory out by doing an Axis Weight drilling on a Brunswick True Motion urethane ball.
The True Motion uses the same 1980’s coverstock as the Grizz, but has the added hitting power that the core filler (Dynamicore) is designed to provide.
My goal is a ball that has the same zero flare, motion balance, control, immunity to release errors and weird lane conditions as the Grizz, but with more hitting power, so carry is better than the Grizz provides with its pancake weight block.

Does this explain better what I am trying to accomplish?

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:21 pm Post Number: #97 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: April 4, 2015
Posts: 277
Location: Iceland
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
I always need to control my laughter so as not to wake the kids when I read about hitting powers of a bowling ball :) you gotta love marketing


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:23 pm Post Number: #98 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
gunso wrote:
I always need to control my laughter so as not to wake the kids when I read about hitting powers of a bowling ball :) you gotta love marketing

You no believe the hype?

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:05 pm Post Number: #99 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 4282
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 940
Reputation Power: 10
Hitting power is about entry angle and position in the pocket.
It has nothing to do with whether a ball has a core or not.
It certainly doesnt include static weight.

Welcome to the 21st century.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:16 pm Post Number: #100 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: September 8, 2012
Posts: 766
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
MegaMav wrote:
Hitting power is about entry angle and position in the pocket.
It has nothing to do with whether a ball has a core or not.
It certainly doesnt include static weight.
Welcome to the 21st century.

Then all the different balls with their different core materials and cover surfaces of different hardness's and COR are not a factor?
When a Hammer ball that has the graphite/kevlar makes that loud crack sound and a storm ball does not, that is not something different?
When one ball keeps the pins low and another fly's them into the air, that has nothing to do with the material the ball is made from?
Also, since the Bowling Academy determined that entry angle does not matter for a strike, then I guess really any ball will do.
Correct?

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Board index » General Forums » Ball Talk


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: