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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:25 am Post Number: #121 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I tried to download the 3 images I was talking about. Simulation of what the core looks like rolling according to how close or far the pin is from your PAP:

http://news.stormbowling.com/wp-content ... ball00.gif
http://news.stormbowling.com/wp-content ... l338-1.gif
http://news.stormbowling.com/wp-content ... all634.gif
Your layout is figure 1.1

Those Gifs are totally cool!

Ok, so I didn't totally screw it up after all.
Actually, maybe by accident, we got it right.
If you compare the Lane Masters layout to the pic of the ball itself, we have the CG on the midline with the pin in the PAP and a balance hole in the PAP.
This is exactly what the Lane Masters layout calls for and this is what we did, by accident. :D
The balance hole is 7/8" in diameter and 3 6/8" deep.
I am not sure what they mean when they say putting a larger hole in the PAP will increase the effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:00 am Post Number: #122 Post
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Quote:
I could try again with a new ball if there was some guarantee that there was some way to exactly figure out how to do a proper Axis Weight layout that is balanced.
No one seems to know anything about this layout and the inventor is dead.


its not that no one seems to know, its just that its a lot of math crunching to get the balance hole to "Nord Quality Standards". I would have held out for a longer pin ball and no/small motion hole myself (as mentioned)... but thats just me.

Your TM should be much better at 500 or lower grit Steven.

:geek:
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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:28 am Post Number: #123 Post
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rmack wrote:
Your TM should be much better at 500 or lower grit Steven.

My experience with my Grizz agrees with this.
So I took a brand new 500 grit pad and aggressively hand wet swirl sanded the ball on all sides.
I will try this tomorrow in league and see how it does.
If I have to go lower in grit I will.
Thanks for everything as usual Ron!

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:32 am Post Number: #124 Post
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Nord wrote:
If I installed the free software and had a ball with a certain top weight and pin length could it figure out what I should have done?
Let's take this True Motion that this forum says we totally screwed up.
Tell me how it should have been drilled.
It had exactly a 3 1/2" pin and 2.5 oz of top weight.
I am a Full Roller.
I use a conventional grip.
My PAP is 6 3/16" right and 2 5/8" up.
My middle finger span is 3 5/16" and my ring finger span is 3 7/16".
Fingers are spaced 3/8" apart.
How should it have been drilled?

I could try again with a new ball if there was some guarantee that there was some way to exactly figure out how to do a proper Axis Weight layout that is balanced.
No one seems to know anything about this layout and the inventor is dead.



As was pointed out, the layout was not correct. Refer to your post # 78 on pg.4 the youtube video axis weight -axis balance of bowling ball w/ the red ball. You need to follow those instructions to the letter w/ YOUR specs on PAP distances. 1st line/arc drawn in video is PAP thru CG and end referred to as point "A"! That does not seem to be what was done on the True Motion as your "A" line/arc ends up below the thumb & not at grip midline/center.

Attachment:
Nord TM axis corr.jpg

Attachment:
Nord TM axis side.jpg


You should use the Grizz as you know the PAP location in relation to grip. I sent you a detailed overlay on the pic you posted of that ball. I used that exact overlay on the pic of the TM w/ some notes imbedded.

I believe that you would need a ball with a larger Pin to CG such as 4-1/2" or more that gets the CG closer to grip center so as not to have excess side wgt issues. Of course w/ layout as is the CG is causing that excess side wgt. A lower top weight ball in the 2 oz area may not hurt either.

Not having the Phoenix/Compubalance software available it's gonna be crap shoot getting this 0-zero balanced. Putting the Pin in the PAP and before drilling any balance hole it must be re-weighed to see exactly what statics are there after drilling in the proper place to start with. Only then can a proper assessment be made as to where the balance hole should go. AND it is probably NOT gonna be dead into the Pin, as was done here. Also, being a full roller that present CG placement is way off. If you had a 'non-full roller' track then the lanemasters midline CG to the right would be close enough for government work as they say to work. Not so in your case however, with a 2.5-3" vertical PAP displacement off the midline.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:59 am Post Number: #125 Post
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imagonman wrote:


As was pointed out, the layout was not correct. Refer to your post # 78 on pg.4 the youtube video axis weight -axis balance of bowling ball w/ the red ball. You need to follow those instructions to the letter w/ YOUR specs on PAP distances. 1st line/arc drawn in video is PAP thru CG and end referred to as point "A"! That does not seem to be what was done on the True Motion as your "A" line/arc ends up below the thumb & not at grip midline/center.

Attachment:
Nord TM axis corr.jpg

Attachment:
Nord TM axis side.jpg


You should use the Grizz as you know the PAP location in relation to grip. I sent you a detailed overlay on the pic you posted of that ball. I used that exact overlay on the pic of the TM w/ some notes imbedded.

I believe that you would need a ball with a larger Pin to CG such as 4-1/2" or more that gets the CG closer to grip center so as not to have excess side wgt issues. Of course w/ layout as is the CG is causing that excess side wgt. A lower top weight ball in the 2 oz area may not hurt either.

Not having the Phoenix/Compubalance software available it's gonna be crap shoot getting this 0-zero balanced. Putting the Pin in the PAP and before drilling any balance hole it must be re-weighed to see exactly what statics are there after drilling in the proper place to start with. Only then can a proper assessment be made as to where the balance hole should go. AND it is probably NOT gonna be dead into the Pin, as was done here. Also, being a full roller that present CG placement is way off. If you had a 'non-full roller' track then the lanemasters midline CG to the right would be close enough for government work as they say to work. Not so in your case however, with a 2.5-3" vertical PAP displacement off the midline.

Thank you for the detailed layout.
So you are saying that my PAP location of 6 3/16 horizontal and 2 5/8" vertical will produce a 6 3/4" distance for arc A to the midpoint?
It seems without the software to tell us how long arc A should be for my horizontal and vertical PAP distance, how can we know for sure how long the arc should be?
You are also saying the Lane Masters layout is not applicable to Full Rollers?
A ball with a very long pin, 5" + and low Top Weight, 2.5 oz or less, is best for a balanced layout?

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:58 pm Post Number: #126 Post
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Quote:
If the side weight started at 1.5oz and it's now 7/8oz, then he removed 5/8oz.
Going by the weight removal chart, to remove 5/8oz. The hole should be 1.25" deep, Dia. 7/8"
If the hole is close to that size, then that's probably 7/8 side W.


The balance hole location for his ball will remove finger weight, side weight, and a little of either top or bottom weight. I'm estimating that it will take out about equal amounts of side and finger, so the hole would have to remove at least 1 1/4 oz of total weight. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:59 pm Post Number: #127 Post
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JohnP wrote:

The balance hole location for his ball will remove finger weight, side weight, and a little of either top or bottom weight. I'm estimating that it will take out about equal amounts of side and finger, so the hole would have to remove at least 1 1/4 oz of total weight. -- JohnP

He had to make the hole deeper because when drilling into the pin, he said the first inch or so was just the plastic pin which the drill went right through like it wasn't even there, then he hit core material, the blue stuff first and finally the actual inner core.
For the fingers and thumb, he only drilled down past the blue outer/inner core and just barely touched the inner core.
When you look in the holes you can see the blue just barely ending and a little of the inner core revealed at the bottom of the hole, like removing dirt from something underneath it until that thing appears.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:14 am Post Number: #128 Post
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Ok, I went down to Parkway in the morning with the True Motion to do a video of it.
I put white tape on the PAP so you can see the motion.
I had the ball at 500 grit.
Let me just say, the True Motion has a very weak urethane cover stock.
Combine that with the Axis drill and you have a ball that does not want to hook.
It was extremely difficult to get this ball into a roll and strike with it.
The ball was very sensitive to my release errors.
If I kind of slightly threw the ball a little left to right, we are talking half a board, then the ball would never roll up and would wash out.
If I missed inside, then it bounced off the pocket and left the 5-7 or worse as it could not roll in the heavier oil.
I had to control target line and speed perfectly in order to strike.
The cover stock was simply too weak at 500 grit.
After I got home I lowered the grit by hitting the ball on all sides with a Burgundy Scotch-Brite.
Basically 320 grit.
Later in league at Parkway, I used the True Motion, do or die.
There was a flood tonight and even my high average partner was below average because he could not get his Code Red to reliably read the lane.
I stood right foot on 10 and rolled over 8 down and in.
Speed control was vital and a good release was needed to strike.
I only got 6 strikes over those 3 games.
However, I was above my Parkway average on all three games and just hit my composite average of 175 for the series.
I did this by not missing any spare that was not a split.
The True Motion was gold for spare shooting.
I had to move all my starting positions for spares right with my feet and go straighter since the ball doesn't hook.
I was actually very, very satisfied with how I bowled.
I have been in a slump over the last months and my league average had dropped to as low as 149.
If the ball could have read the lane a little better, then I would have had more strikes, but considering, I was very pleased with how controllable the ball is and how wonderfully it complimented my style.
Also, on a lot of light hits I got pins shooting or tumbling more than normal.
Dynamicore in action?
In summary I must say I actually really love this ball!
I also love this layout.
It is a layout that does only what I do and nothing more.
I have attached my score sheet of my first series with the True Motion.
I also have attached a pic showing the oil ring.
And below is a link to my video showing it in action at 500 grit at Parkway.
Check out the last shot in the video, I got a Belmo messenger!
That's the first one I have ever got in my life!
Dynamicore in action?
Also, after I got home from league, I hit the ball with 320 wet sand paper and then finished with light pressure with the burgundy scotch-brite.
Hopefully this will give me a tad more traction and protect me on misses right and inside.

Enjoy the True Motion Axis Drill in action:



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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:39 pm Post Number: #129 Post
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Nord wrote:
Ok, I went down to Parkway in the morning with the True Motion to do a video of it.
I put white tape on the PAP so you can see the motion.
I had the ball at 500 grit.
Let me just say, the True Motion has a very weak urethane cover stock.
Combine that with the Axis drill and you have a ball that does not want to hook.
It was extremely difficult to get this ball into a roll and strike with it.
The ball was very sensitive to my release errors.
If I kind of slightly threw the ball a little left to right, we are talking half a board, then the ball would never roll up and would wash out.
If I missed inside, then it bounced off the pocket and left the 5-7 or worse as it could not roll in the heavier oil.
I had to control target line and speed perfectly in order to strike.
The cover stock was simply too weak at 500 grit.


That pretty much described all the reasons why that layout isn't used accept in certain situations.

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In summary I must say I actually really love this ball!


Great!

Quote:
I also love this layout.
It is a layout that does only what I do and nothing more.


That's the main thing, it does what you want it to do and your happy with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:20 pm Post Number: #130 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

That's the main thing, it does what you want it to do and your happy with it.

I think this layout, done more perfectly on a much stronger cover stock ball, such as the Crow, would be even more deadly.
I will see how the True Motion works at 320 wet sand though.
I will be bowling league at a new house this Wednesday that has less volume and more built in friction.
The True Motion may excel on those lanes.
Normally I do poorly on dry lanes because with my current balls I am forced inside but don't have the revs to swing it.
Maybe the True Motion will let me stay outside.

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:56 pm Post Number: #131 Post
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Perhaps use the Crow as your strike ball and the True Motion as a spare ball when the lanes are oily. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:22 pm Post Number: #132 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Perhaps use the Crow as your strike ball and the True Motion as a spare ball when the lanes are oily. -- JohnP

Yes, I have my super high flare Crow as my backup ball.
So I could have used it last night on the heavy Parkway volume, but I wanted to play the True Motion to see how it would do.
But I am seriously considering a Crow with the Axis drill, but first I will see how the True Motion at 320 grit responds.
Maybe just getting the grit low enough is the ticket.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:32 pm Post Number: #133 Post
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The 320 grit experiment was a failure.
This actually made the ball unuseable in the dry, it was simply too strong and would roll out and crossover.
But if I kept it in the oil it was too weak.
So I took the ball back up to stock 1000 grit and now it is perfect.
I can camp in the dry and take advantage of the free hook of the house shot found outside of second arrow.
I can roll up 7 all day and get more entry angle and the ball will just float in soft and easy and hold a nice arcing line.
It will roll half the lane and hit amazingly hard even with my slow ball speed.
Finally a ball that lets me have an advantage on a house shot.

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:19 am Post Number: #134 Post
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I think this is the right place to post this.
After I did the Axis drill on the True Motion I really like how this layout is working for me.
But the one limitation was the True Motion coverstock is just far too weak to use on normal volume house shots.
So I started thinking about a ball that would lend itself to this layout well and work on normal, to heavy volume house shots.
The first thought that came to mind was make sure the coverstock is strong since the core will be taken out of play and flare will be minimal to zero.
Particle ball came to mind.
I knew I needed a long pin and low top weight to make the drilling work without a balance hole.
Well after a month of checking ebay a ball was posted and I snagged it instantly.
It had perfect specs for an Axis drill.
Super long pin, super low top weight and it is a particle reactive.
Let me introduce you to my new "Track Arsenal Angular Particle" bowling ball:

Attachment:
Track Arsenal Angular Particle.jpg


Pretty, isn't it?
We measured it at the shop tonight for Axis Weight and Balance.
My PAP is 6 3/16" over and 2 5/8" up.
The pin on this ball is over 6 inches in length!
Top weight is only 1 3/4 oz.
We carefully measured and found the exact CG point which was just a millimeter off from the manufacturer marker.
We then layed out the ball to make sure the pin and CG remain perfectly in line to the midpoint.
The CG fell exactly, directly, on the palm center midpoint!
A perfect layout.
He will drill the ball tonight and I will pick it up tomorrow and post a photo of the final layout.
With the new rules of the USBC a balance hole will likely not be needed to make it legal.
Also, we are guessing that because of the length of pin and low top weight, that the statics may be very even anyway.


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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:10 am Post Number: #135 Post
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Here is what the final Axis Weight Layout looks like.
You can see that the CG is in grip center and the pin is on my PAP.
The super long pin allowed the Pin to be on PAP and CG on midline center.

The final drilled specs came out to:
1/8 Positive Side
1/16 Thumb
7/16 Bottom
Total Weight: 14 lb 15 oz


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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:23 am Post Number: #136 Post
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I have just posted a video of the Track Arsenal Angular Particle with Axis drill.
I left the ball at stock polished grit and it was so long and flippy, control for me was very hard.
I had to hit a very precise line to keep the ball flipping into the pocket correctly.
If I missed right there was no recovery and if I missed left there was no hold.
It was super over/under with no room to miss.
But this thing flipped harder than any ball I have ever used!
After this session I used a 1000 grit Trizact sanding pad and wet sanded the ball to take the shine off with the hope that it would read the middle of the lane sooner and make it more gentle off the back and provide some recovery for misses right.

Here she is in action:


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Rev rate: 150
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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:04 am Post Number: #137 Post
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Good ball motion.
Finish with more authority with your release to get it to rev up more.
Stop cutting your arm short.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:11 am Post Number: #138 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Good ball motion.
Finish with more authority with your release to get it to rev up more.
Stop cutting your arm short.

Thanks for the tip!
Because the Arsenal Angular was very under/over with polish, I hit it with a 800 grit gray Scotch-Brite to take the polish off and see if it would smooth out the reaction.
Then I went back the next day and did a new video.
Here it is, let me know what you think:


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Rev rate: 150
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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:47 am Post Number: #139 Post
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Looked pretty good Nord!

I'd like to see you with your thumb in the ball a little more, I think you could get a few more revs.

But all in all you were striking!

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:46 am Post Number: #140 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Looked pretty good Nord!

I'd like to see you with your thumb in the ball a little more, I think you could get a few more revs.

But all in all you were striking!

If you mean it looks like my thumb is not in all the way, it actually is, but because I hold the ball with a suitcase grip the weight of the ball is actually all on an area about 1/4" up from the bottom of my thumb.
That is why my thumb seems more out of the ball since the weight of the ball pulls the thumb out a bit.
If I make a good release with the Arsenal you can see in the video that the PAP mark, which is the pin, is very stable.
The remaining statics on this ball are extremely minor, so this ball is as close to a fully balanced Axis Weight/Axis Balanced layout as I think you can get without a balance hole which I did not want to do since it will be illegal soon.

The Arsenal had a 6 5/16" pin length with only 1 3/4 oz of top weight.
This resulted in final statics of:
-1/8 Positive Side
-1/16 Thumb
-7/16 Bottom.

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Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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