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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:58 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Telling me that because I am just coming back, and since my so far average is only 150ish I should just drill my ball so it rolls is condescending. I want new equipment that will help me realize my full potential.

Yeah, I just watched that video. I am not in agreement with Mr, Shockley. Just because someone has issues hitting there mark doesn't mean they cannot recognize ball motion and want to have choices in the bag to have different ball motions to use at different times. With proper layouts the margin for error will increase and so will the scores. A proper layout will help the ball get into a roll. I made a comment about getting the ball to roll when you asked about how do you know if the driller did his job correctly. Getting the ball to roll is the major part of getting layouts correct. Getting the ball to roll at the proper time will raise your strike percentage. Again this is a function of the layout. getting the surface correct to match you up to your bowling environment is also very important. A good Proshop operator will also recommend ball surfaces for you to help you fine tune your ball motion.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:17 am Post Number: #22 Post
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Quote:
Hitchhiker42
She. I'm a she, LOL :)

Whoops!!! Sorrrrrrryyyyyyy!!! :shock:


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JohnP
Hitch -- Until you can learn more about layouts and ball choices you're going to have to rely on your ball driller a lot. From reading the previous posts it sounds like you've found a good one. First, make sure he watches you bowl at least one game and he locates your PAP (Positive Axis Point) for use in laying the ball out. Then discuss your limitations from the injuries and how serious you are about bowling. See if he recommends a conventional or fingertip grip... When you pick the ball up ask the driller to watch you throw a game or two with it to be sure your release is clean and nothing is hurting your hand. Finally, ask him if he provides coaching and if not if he can recommend a coach for you. -- JohnP

This is super advice. Please take it to heart.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:21 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
JonhP, thank you.

I received a Nitrous yesterday, 11# and I'm going today to pick up my Black Widow Urethane 12# and have them both drilled.

I am going to keep an open mind and hope that Dave is going to look at my game and help me out. All totaled, with the three balls, I will have spent over $400 with drilling on the Tzone, Nitrous and Widow. My 16 year old son wants to bowl league with me and maybe a youth team so if these don't work for me, they might work for him.


If Dave doesn't offer to watch you roll a game or two then ask him to watch you, be sure to throw about the same number of shots with each ball. If he doesn't have the time when you pick it up make an appointment at a later time. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:39 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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Oh, you didn't offend.
It's sometimes hard to hear that unless I'm REALLY good, that I should not be concerned about how balls are laid out. Maybe that's completely true.

But...I have found that having a good piece of equipment when you first begin something, be it playing an instrument, playing a sport, learning a new art or craft, will allow you to be more successful faster and thus make you want to keep doing it. Playing a crap guitar that cannot stay in tune and crap strings that hurt your fingers more than they need to will make you stop playing. And you'll not think it's the crap guitar, you're more likely to think you don't have an aptitude for it.

I want the best I can afford, drilled the best for me and the way I bowl. Then I will know it's my ability that isn't up to par, not the equipment holding me back.

My opinion. On this, I am not wrong.
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:52 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Oh, you didn't offend.
It's sometimes hard to hear that unless I'm REALLY good, that I should not be concerned about how balls are laid out. Maybe that's completely true.

But...I have found that having a good piece of equipment when you first begin something, be it playing an instrument, playing a sport, learning a new art or craft, will allow you to be more successful faster and thus make you want to keep doing it. Playing a crap guitar that cannot stay in tune and crap strings that hurt your fingers more than they need to will make you stop playing. And you'll not think it's the crap guitar, you're more likely to think you don't have an aptitude for it.

I want the best I can afford, drilled the best for me and the way I bowl. Then I will know it's my ability that isn't up to par, not the equipment holding me back.

My opinion. On this, I am not wrong.
:)

You should be very concerned about getting a proper fit that allows you to hold the ball with no pain or stress either immediately, or over the long term.
When I first started I had horrible drilling and suffered so much pain that I thought I would need to quit the game.
I could only use a 12lb ball and even that caused lots of pain.
Finally I made contact with Ron Machniak of Precision Bowling who I found on this forum.
He worked with me via email, had me take precise measurements and photos of my hand and fingers and give him my current ball measurements.
He created a layout that was way different from what I had.
I got a local pro to drill a ball with those specs. Pain was gone and in a short time I was up to using a 15lb ball!
For me what was needed, due to my unique way of holding the ball, was lots of forward pitch in all the holes.
Additionally, Like Norm Duke, I use cork in the front of the thumb hole.
This really was the final great thing that allowed me the hold the ball without squeezing.
So, I recommend a proper drilling with forward pitch to help you hold the ball without stress and if you are using a thumbslug you will need something in the front of the thumbhole to allow you to hold on without gripping as thumbslugs are slippery and need either grip tape or cork.
A ball without a thumbslug has some natural texture that provides some grip.
But gripping tape or cork are highly recommend.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:25 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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Quote:
It's sometimes hard to hear that unless I'm REALLY good, that I should not be concerned about how balls are laid out. Maybe that's completely true.


I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't be concerned about the layouts you use, just that until you learn more about them you'll have to rely on your driller. Even some of the pro's do that. If you haven't found the Bowling Chat WIKI yet click the radio button at the top right hand side of every page. You'll find enough information there to keep you busy for a long time and it will be very helpful. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:50 am Post Number: #27 Post
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Hello All,

As you know, Billy Hardwick is my favorite bowler of all time.
Billy was a Full Roller.
A Full Roller rolls the ball over the full circumference of the ball, with the ball track going through the palm of the bowling ball at an angle between the gripping holes.
Billy was unique in that he rolled a very straight ball with little side turn or hook.
Billy also rolled the ball much slower than most other players.
With his straighter, slower, Full Roller roll and his pinpoint accuracy (Billy rarely missed a spare and often converted most of the splits he was faced with), Billy was able to lay the ball tightly into the pocket again and again and consistently carry the strike.

For this seemingly contradictory ability to roll straight and still carry strikes, he was nicknamed "The Magician" when he was competing on the 1965 "Championship Bowling" TV show.
During the 1976 Firestone Tournament of Champions title match, where Billy faced a young Marshall Holman, analyst Nelson Burton Jr. remarked to Chris Schenkel on seeing Billy throw his second opening strike in a row with his slow straight shot, "How does he do it, Chris?! Everyone wonders how Hardwick does it." After his third strike in a row, Nelson further commented, "It is almost unbelievable the control and accuracy of Hardwick. He does not depend on the power strikes like Marshall Holman, he depends on splicing a small target out there at the arrows. When Hardwick is right, he can hit a half-board, consistently, 20 foot down the lane, Chris. Put it right in the pocket. All three strikes he's got so far are perfect packed strikes."

I have recently been experimenting with trying to roll the ball like Billy.
Coming more up the back of the ball rather than the normal way I release the ball with a lot of side roll.

Let me know what you think about this new roll style.
Is this something I should pursue?
Will it ultimately result in me becoming a more consistent and better bowler?

Here is the vid showing me using the Hardwick style:


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Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:34 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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I threw the ball like that from age 8 until age 40 or so (take out 20 year layoff or so). It so easy to do and you don't have to worry about your wrist or anything. Accuracy is dead on. 1988 I used a red hammer shot 278 267 (then someone came in on my team late on 3rd game) 180 for 725 when I was 16 and got my name on a plaque in the bowling alley (Red Hammer I still have) . 15-20 years ago practiced at the "easy bowling alley" allstar and averaged 230+ for 10 games. (whenever the SD-73 came out which I still have).

I will still use the full roller if I have to play inside or on the 1st arrow which so far usually never have to. I find the full roller style deadly and strong playing around there. Now playing 2nd arrow (which I have all my life), You will sometimes get defelection etc and I really never seen good pin action out of it. We are talking 16lb ball throwing 17-19mph on the screen which is measured almost at the pins. I swear I wish I would have used the full roller style at Nationals last year. I used it in 2005? and my first 3 games was 200+ (The full roller release is always constant while the other realease can run into a lot of issues since it is new to me). Everything that I got drilled I got drilled strong. The downside is that some balls I bought never worked. I have a rotogrip Cell I never used because it didn't do nothing, I have a Brunswick System c3.5 or something never could use. The last ball I ever got drilled for full roller and worked as the Brunswick Scorcin inferno. I used that one in nationals and also went to a tournament in Arkansas 10 games anyone was welcome. I did win high game once with 250+ one game. I couldn't get the ball to move much at all and had oil flying up in the air there. I haven't ever seen anything like that or since seen anything like that.

The downside of the full roller is revs. Your stuck 1st or 2nd arrow (not possible to throw it across 3rd arrow out to 8 and back in. My rev rate is 150/175 full roller) . Don't expect flying messengers and you always face a lot of deflection. Even when I changed to the newer style, I was still using the full roller to pick up spares. I might even go back to that someday for spares.

Now I know why I wrote this. I saw JohnP post about layouts. Honestly I wouldn't worry about layouts because you need the strongest thing you can get because throwing that style, the ball won't move much. I worry about layouts a lot now though. I swear I had 400 or so revs +-25 in the 10th frame on Thursday. I threw the ball across 13 out to 8 and then a sharp turn back into the pocket and I was about 17mph on the monitor. The pins looked like someone took a baseball bat and just swatted them from the side. The ball wasn't drilled either for strength, it was drilled for control and have a continuous arc and not jump on the backend. The ball is a Ebonite Gamebreaker 3 (which isn't a heavy oil ball) Also pay attention to what Eric hartwell says he knows his stuff a lot more then I do. When I was doing full roller, I didn't know about layouts well, surface prep nothing. All I knew was hit the 2nd arrow and that was it. I wasn't even taught to move right or left I don't think. I just used ball speed to adjust getting to the pocket or not. I am really good at that right now though. My partner on Wed told me I needed to slow the ball down some. I dropped it from 17.2 or so down to 14.2 without struggling walking or anything with timing and threw it out a little to far but it came back and struck. I was trying to get down to 16.5 and I guess over compensated a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:35 am Post Number: #29 Post
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krava wrote:
I threw the ball like that from age 8 until age 40 or so (take out 20 year layoff or so). It so easy to do and you don't have to worry about your wrist or anything. Accuracy is dead on. 1988 I used a red hammer shot 278 267 (then someone came in on my team late on 3rd game) 180 for 725 when I was 16 and got my name on a plaque in the bowling alley (Red Hammer I still have) . 15-20 years ago practiced at the "easy bowling alley" allstar and averaged 230+ for 10 games. (whenever the SD-73 came out which I still have).

I will still use the full roller if I have to play inside or on the 1st arrow which so far usually never have to. I find the full roller style deadly and strong playing around there. Now playing 2nd arrow (which I have all my life), You will sometimes get defelection etc and I really never seen good pin action out of it. We are talking 16lb ball throwing 17-19mph on the screen which is measured almost at the pins. I swear I wish I would have used the full roller style at Nationals last year. I used it in 2005? and my first 3 games was 200+ (The full roller release is always constant while the other realease can run into a lot of issues since it is new to me). Everything that I got drilled I got drilled strong. The downside is that some balls I bought never worked. I have a rotogrip Cell I never used because it didn't do nothing, I have a Brunswick System c3.5 or something never could use. The last ball I ever got drilled for full roller and worked as the Brunswick Scorcin inferno. I used that one in nationals and also went to a tournament in Arkansas 10 games anyone was welcome. I did win high game once with 250+ one game. I couldn't get the ball to move much at all and had oil flying up in the air there. I haven't ever seen anything like that or since seen anything like that.

The downside of the full roller is revs. Your stuck 1st or 2nd arrow (not possible to throw it across 3rd arrow out to 8 and back in. My rev rate is 150/175 full roller) . Don't expect flying messengers and you always face a lot of deflection. Even when I changed to the newer style, I was still using the full roller to pick up spares. I might even go back to that someday for spares.

Now I know why I wrote this. I saw JohnP post about layouts. Honestly I wouldn't worry about layouts because you need the strongest thing you can get because throwing that style, the ball won't move much. I worry about layouts a lot now though. I swear I had 400 or so revs +-25 in the 10th frame on Thursday. I threw the ball across 13 out to 8 and then a sharp turn back into the pocket and I was about 17mph on the monitor. The pins looked like someone took a baseball bat and just swatted them from the side. The ball wasn't drilled either for strength, it was drilled for control and have a continuous arc and not jump on the backend. The ball is a Ebonite Gamebreaker 3 (which isn't a heavy oil ball) Also pay attention to what Eric hartwell says he knows his stuff a lot more then I do. When I was doing full roller, I didn't know about layouts well, surface prep nothing. All I knew was hit the 2nd arrow and that was it. I wasn't even taught to move right or left I don't think. I just used ball speed to adjust getting to the pocket or not. I am really good at that right now though. My partner on Wed told me I needed to slow the ball down some. I dropped it from 17.2 or so down to 14.2 without struggling walking or anything with timing and threw it out a little to far but it came back and struck. I was trying to get down to 16.5 and I guess over compensated a bit.

Thanks for the feedback and description of your game.
You said, use the strongest ball because it is not going to hook anyway.
Well, I have found that a strong ball actually will hook a lot for me, too much, and get me into trouble.
I normally use urethane because it is smoother and gives me more control.
I tried to use my Crow urethane in league tonight and it simply had so much backend that I could not control it.
The layout I have on it really makes it snap hard in the back.
The Crow forces me left and it snaps too much and I don't score high because of it.
My old school Grizz urethane allows me to stand right and roll right up 9 and the Grizz will gently roll left and stay in the pocket.
The only issue though with the Grizz is it is not a modern strong urethane, so it tends to underreact for me and not be able to carry as easily.
Next week I have an idea, take my Purple Hammer down from 2000 grit to 500 grit.
The Purple, like the Grizz does not flare.
It has an RG of 2.65 and a very low diff of .015.
My hope is it will allow me to play down and in, up 9 or 10 and gently roll up and hit hard with its two piece construction.
The Purple should be a little stronger than the Grizz and maybe give me some recovery to the right but still hold the line on good shots, but carry stronger.
I am starting to find that low flare balls, really, no flare balls, work better for my game.
I am a Full Roller, have zero tilt, 90 degree axis rotation and low ball speed, 10 mph at the pins.
My rev rate is only 150 rpms.
So I want the ability, on house shots, to be able to stand right and ease the ball up second arrow and have it gently roll in with no fear of crossing over on misses left and provide some recovery on misses right.
This should be the percentage play for my Full Roller style on house shots.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:49 am Post Number: #30 Post
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strongest layout or strong layout, not the strongest ball. Strongest ball will need oil because of the surface. I am probably mistaken, it depends on your game also. Slower ball speed might not be a good idea for a strong layout. I have a control layout on a hy-road and a hustle (one is medium the other is light oil ball and weak), those 2 do really good for me with that control layout. I am not sure how much layout effects the full roller style. Everyone recommended me getting a strong layout when I was doing it though.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:47 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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If we are placing people in boxes, I have 0 tilt, which means I use the full circumference of the ball, unlike a regular 3/4-roller. But my roll does not go between my fingers and the thumb hole, as my release is like a regular 3/4-roller, but a lot more to the inside.

I actually play with Sarge Easter, but for illustration purposes, I left that bit out of the image.

So, what am I? I have a 3/4-roller release, full roller roll circumference, and an odd track. Basically a full roller roll shifted below the thumb...


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    PAP: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
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    Years bowling: 11
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    High game: 290
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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:17 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:

So, what am I? I have a 3/4-roller release, full roller roll circumference, and an odd track. Basically a full roller roll shifted below the thumb...


IMO a full roller.

Anymore there are basically two definitions of a full roller , the classic definition: A bowler whose track passes between the thumb and fingers and whose track measures the circumference of the ball.

And the more modern definition: A bowler with zero tilt whose track measures the circumference of the ball regardless if it passes between the thumb and fingers or not .

The Modern Full roller is mentioned here:

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:15 am Post Number: #33 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
If we are placing people in boxes, I have 0 tilt, which means I use the full circumference of the ball, unlike a regular 3/4-roller. But my roll does not go between my fingers and the thumb hole, as my release is like a regular 3/4-roller, but a lot more to the inside.

I actually play with Sarge Easter, but for illustration purposes, I left that bit out of the image.

So, what am I? I have a 3/4-roller release, full roller roll circumference, and an odd track. Basically a full roller roll shifted below the thumb...

You may be a real Full Roller, but if you use a Semi-Roller layout, the ball will flare down towards the thumb rather than up and away from it.
So this may be why the flare is below your thumb rather than above it.
To test this use a ball with a pancake weight block and the CG in the center of palm.
Roll the ball and see where the oil lines are.
Are they through the palm, or still below the thumb?
If still below the thumb, then you may be one of the modern Full Rollers who do not go through the palm, but still roll over the full circumference of the ball, or close to it.
Almost zero tilt.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:17 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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The greatest Modern Full Roller in action!


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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:33 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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My spare ball has one of the largest cores Hammer makes, so its hard to test that theory ;)

I can release a house ball, and my track sticks around there, more of a tendency to get more thumb roll with house balls, but in general, unless I try, it stays below.

I am a hard case, in that matter. Do I drill regular, or full roller layouts? Currently I roll regular drilled equipment, and I average 187 in Norwegian National League, we run a 3.3:1 ratio pattern, so it is proper stuff we lay out too. 169 avg in total with tournaments over the whole 17/18 season (june 1st-may 31st in Norway)

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    RPM: 450
    Axis rotation: 30°
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    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:57 am Post Number: #36 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
My spare ball has one of the largest cores Hammer makes, so its hard to test that theory ;)

I can release a house ball, and my track sticks around there, more of a tendency to get more thumb roll with house balls, but in general, unless I try, it stays below.

I am a hard case, in that matter. Do I drill regular, or full roller layouts? Currently I roll regular drilled equipment, and I average 187 in Norwegian National League, we run a 3.3:1 ratio pattern, so it is proper stuff we lay out too. 169 avg in total with tournaments over the whole 17/18 season (june 1st-may 31st in Norway)

Go to the proshop and find a used ball to buy cheap to test with and put an aggressive Full Roller drill on it and see if your track gets above the thumb and stays there and if it makes a big improvement in your ball motion and carry.
You will never know till you try.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:28 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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If I get more carry, I'll strike on two lanes at once.

And my pro shop is litteraly 500 miles away. And opposite of the Pretenders, I ain't walking 500 miles! ;)

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    Years bowling: 11
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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:29 pm Post Number: #38 Post
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Let me be clear, I don't have issues with ball reaction or carry of any sorts, I am just trying to map out what I am, since I am a little bit of both types.

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    PAP: 3 1/2" right 1 1/2" up
    Speed: 15.5 downlane
    RPM: 450
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    Years bowling: 11
    Average (sport patterns, 4:1 ratio and less): 175
    High game: 290
    High series: 756


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:04 pm Post Number: #39 Post
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It seems to me there are various types of full rollers today:

1) Nord: classic full roller, 0* tilt, tracks between thumb and fingers

2) 0* tilt but doesn’t track between thumb and fingers just like jimmydanny or like I used to be when I had 0* axis tilt (I used to track almost clipping the MF)

3) Tom Smallwood: tracks between thumb and fingers but does not have 0* tilt... yes, Mo said it somewhere and I am trying to find where but he said Tom actually has axis tilt so he’s not really a full roller by axis tilt definition but tracks between thumb and fingers.

4) Over rolled full rollers, have actually negative axis tilt

I would someday like to roll someone’s ball that’s laid out full roller to see what it does with my 2.5-5* of tilt. If I like it I may drill myself one without a thumbhole and maybe use an interesting balance hole...


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:14 pm Post Number: #40 Post
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I was cleaning my Judge Urethane ball tonight and just for the fun of it I turned it upside down so the palm was facing straight down.
I carefully balanced the ball and spun it.
It slowly processed as it spun until it stabilized and then was spinning only in one exact place on the ball.
That place was a few inches right of the ring finger hole.
I have attached two photos showing the procession and the final point it stabilized.
It actually polished the surface of the ball on the area it was spinning since the surface of the Judge is so soft.
Is this my Full Roller PAP?


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_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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