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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:31 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Nord said, in his most excited voice:
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Here is the rule I would like to see put in place:

1. Every bowler must use the same ball, generic, produced by the PBA and made of pure urethane.
2. That ball must only have a pancake weight block.
3. It must only be drilled with simple CG in palm drilling.
4. No flare, or performance enhancing drillings allowed.
5. The grit finish must be the same for all bowlers.
6. The normal thumbslug or inserts are allowed.
7. The pattern will be flat with low volume and short enough to allow urethane to read properly, but not so short that any advanges are given to higher or lower rev players.
8. Only two bowlers will be allowed on the championship pair in championship competition at a time.
9. After each pair decides the winner who will advance to the next championship round, the lane will be re-oiled to return it to as it was so each match will have no difference or advantage.
10. A player that is advancing to the next round will be allowed to de-oil/clean his urethane ball before the next match and return it to dry pre-match condition or, he can use a new identical fresh ball.
11. No warm up or practice shots are allowed on the Championship Pair. You can warm up on warm up lanes, but when championship play begins, the Championship Pair will be fresh.
12. Players must wear an outfit free of any extra promotion of products or advertisement. They can wear any crazy outfits they want, but they cannot promote products on their outfits as an addition to the outfit. No shirts that say Storm or Hammer. Storm or Hammer can make the shirts, but they cannot say Storm or Hammer on them, only on the hidden tag.
13. The final and most important rule: No coaching or ball reps allowed during Championship competition! It is up to the players to figure out what to do and when to do it. Any player caught being repped or coached will be disqualified. Since all players must use a PBA issued generic ball anyway, this should get rid of all those dumb reps hovering around all the players telling them how to use the balls that company issues to them.


This. I agree here 100%, but we don't live in that world. We live in the world where technology is KING and if it gives you an advantage over the other guy and gets you closer to the money, that's what will be used.

I'm getting back to the lanes after 17 years off and every single thing has changed. I'm confused, overwhelmed and wishing for the days when it was just roll a urethane ball strike ball, and finish with my polyester to get that blasted 10 pin. Now I see rev, PAP, axis, tilt, speed off the hand...none of which I know. Nord, I bowl much like you; I'm full roller, fairly straight, lower speed, aim at the #2 arrow and look for that gentle hook into the pocket. I consider myself a finesse player, my speed will never be enough to cause giant explosive carry.

I am purchasing a Black Widow urethane as well as a Nitrous to see which one might give me back my hook. After 17 years, I'm just wanting to get my 186 average back and bring my 16 year old son into the mix. So far, using my poly, I've rolled an average 152 over 8 games. Hoping the Widow gives me 30 more.

Happy New Year everyone. 2018 better be a good year.

Ginny
Colorado


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:15 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Nord, I bowl much like you; I'm full roller, fairly straight, lower speed, aim at the #2 arrow and look for that gentle hook into the pocket. I consider myself a finesse player, my speed will never be enough to cause giant explosive carry.

I am purchasing a Black Widow urethane as well as a Nitrous to see which one might give me back my hook.
Colorado

Cool, a fellow Full Roller!
Any videos on youtube?
The Black Widow Urethane is an amazing ball.
Drill it as strong and early as possible for the best effect.
Make that ultra low RG and High Diff core work for you.
Let us know how it goes.

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:25 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Nice video Nord. I want that back again...looking forward to my Widow.

What does it mean to drill a ball strong and early?
So much has changed since I bowled leagues in the early 90s.

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:56 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Nice video Nord. I want that back again...looking forward to my Widow.

What does it mean to drill a ball strong and early?
So much has changed since I bowled leagues in the early 90s.

Thank you!


Nord should probably be the one to explain what he means by those terms, I think I can guess but I wouldn’t want to say and be wrong :)

Here’s a fun read regarding layouts. Keep in mind the Black Widow has asymmetrical weight block, this is important! http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... lAngle.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:59 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Nice video Nord. I want that back again...looking forward to my Widow.

What does it mean to drill a ball strong and early?
So much has changed since I bowled leagues in the early 90s.

Thank you!

Your drilling options will be limited with the Black Widow Urethane.
One you are said to be a full roller and two the core in the 12# Widow is Symmetrical and very weak.
Your best bet will be the aggressive full roller layout.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ymmetrical

Do you know for a fact that you are a full roller?
Just because you utilize a suitcase type release doesn't necessarily mean you are a full roller.
A full roller has 0* of tilt and the ball rolls the full circumference of the ball at release.
Not all full rollers need special layouts to keep the ball from rolling over the gripping holes.
Is your ball track between your fingers and thumb?

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45* rotation
12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:11 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Eric...okay, I was told a long time ago that I'm a 'full roller'.
May actually not apply anymore, but who knows.
My hand begins with palm up as I bend to release and when I release, my palm is turned to the left side.
I release the ball with almost no loft at all, rolling it from about 12 inches from the foul line. I roll really straight balls. If I aim for the #2 arrow, the ball goes over the arrow and pretty straight to the pins from there.
My lanes use the Winding Road oil pattern, if that helps you at all.
My current ball is a poly Tzone Pink Bliss. No real way to tell how the ball rolls since it's hard to see it spin. Slow speed, 5-7 seconds from my hand to the pins.

Does any of that help?

And I thank you so much!


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:53 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Nice video Nord. I want that back again...looking forward to my Widow.
What does it mean to drill a ball strong and early?
So much has changed since I bowled leagues in the early 90s.
Thank you!

It means to drill a ball so it will flare the max amount so the ball will be getting as much friction as the surface of the ball can provide.
A high flare layout combined with the Widow's early rolling Low RG/High Diff Gas Mask core will assure this ball starts up as soon as it can into a roll.
The goal of urethane is not back-end reaction, it is early hook and set/roll to the pocket.
Urethane should be reading the whole lane front to back, start hooking about 20 feet up the lane, setting into a roll shortly thereafter and rolling the rest of the way to the pocket.
This smooth gentle motion is what allows urethane to have so much control.

But first find out if you are really a Full Roller.
Your oil track when the ball comes back after a throw should be through the palm of the ball.
I have attached an image showing the flare pattern and where your track should be if you are a Full Roller.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Axis Rotation: 90
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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:30 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Nord!! You so rock (and full roll, LOL)

I rolled 5 game this morning. I'll go again tomorrow morning and see what I can see on my ball.

Thank you!

So much new information...


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:04 am Post Number: #9 Post
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Nord wrote:
A high flare layout combined with the Widow's early rolling Low RG/High Diff Gas Mask core will assure this ball starts up as soon as it can into a roll.

The Widow is NOT Asymmetrical at 12#, it is a Modified Diesel core. The differential at 12# is only .025 and the Rg is Not low, it is 2.63. There is nothing about the core at 12# that is Strong, Early or High Flaring. The coverstock will dominate its motion. It will roll very much like old school urethane. Not much help from the core.

Ginny,

There are options for balance holes to help get some performance out of the core. To do this effectively release specs are needed to tune the layout and balance hole to your release.
PAP, Speed, Revs (rpm), tilt and rotation
Check out this link for information needed to gather your release specs.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

If you have a reputable proshop they should be able to determine your release specs and drill a ball accordingly for you.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:02 am Post Number: #10 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The Widow is NOT Asymmetrical at 12#, it is a Modified Diesel core. The differential at 12# is only .025 and the Rg is Not low, it is 2.63. There is nothing about the core at 12# that is Strong, Early or High Flaring. The coverstock will dominate its motion. It will roll very much like old school urethane. Not much help from the core.

Sorry, I never saw where he mentioned that he needed a 12lb ball.
Sure about that?
Assuming he does use 12lbs then yes the Modified Diesel core will be in play.
Still I recommend using a high flare layout to get the most out of it as possible.
The coverstock which is very strong and still dominates the reaction even with the Gasmask, should keep the ball smooth and strong.
It should arc softly like old school urethane which is a great motion.

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Axis Rotation: 90
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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:41 am Post Number: #11 Post
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She. I'm a she, LOL :)

And yes, for now I need 12#. I used to play roller derby and we shoulder check players to get them out of bounds. I can shoulder check you into next Tuesday...until the day I couldn't.
Torn labrum, bicep tendon needed moved from the top of my humerus to under my arm, acromioplasty, on my left. Torn labrum, general impingement on my right. Surgery on my left and it was the worst thing ever in life. I chose not to do surgery on the right and I just go get beat up by my physical therapist every 10 days. So, until my arm strength gets better, I'm rolling 11 and 12#.

So, when I go get measured for both the Widow and the Nitrous, what do I tell the man? Dave Olm is the pro, in case anyone has info on him. What do I say or do if he measures my hand and takes the ball to the drill. How does a person who knows NOTHING about today's bowling tell a PSO what to do? Since I know nothing, how do I know if he's doing something wrong or right?

I really appreciate the help. I cannot tell you how much. Nord and Eric have been especially wonderful for helping me.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:42 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
So, when I go get measured for both the Widow and the Nitrous, what do I tell the man?

i don't know anything about layouts either so when i get a new ball i do one of the following:
1. bring in an old ball and have a similar layout put on the new one.
2. bring in a picture of one of the recommended layouts from the company. (they usually come with the ball in the box)
3. tell him what kind of motion i want from the ball (strong overall hook, early rolling, skid/snap) and let him figure it out.
since the nitrous is more of entry level ball i would drill that one first and have him watch you bowl and then maybe he can recommend something for the black widow.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:58 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Nord wrote:
Sorry, I never saw where he mentioned that he needed a 12lb ball.
Sure about that?
Assuming he does use 12lbs then yes the Modified Diesel core will be in play.
Still I recommend using a high flare layout to get the most out of it as possible.
The coverstock which is very strong and still dominates the reaction even with the Gasmask, should keep the ball smooth and strong.
It should arc softly like old school urethane which is a great motion.

It dominates your reaction because of the full roller layout. For someone that is a 3/4 roller there is more than enough strength and layout possibilities in the Gas Mask core to not be dominated by the coverstock.

Hitchhiker42 wrote:
So, when I go get measured for both the Widow and the Nitrous, what do I tell the man? Dave Olm is the pro, in case anyone has info on him. What do I say or do if he measures my hand and takes the ball to the drill. How does a person who knows NOTHING about today's bowling tell a PSO what to do? Since I know nothing, how do I know if he's doing something wrong or right?

I really appreciate the help. I cannot tell you how much. Nord and Eric have been especially wonderful for helping me.

When you go see Dave he should at a minimum watch you bowl, find your PAP, locate your initial track. If he does not do any of these things I would suggest you find a different driller.
From the information he gathers from watching you bowl he should be able to determine a layout for your balls.
Then he should measure your hand and fit you properly.
If you roll the ball and it does not roll over your gripping holes and gets into a roll before it hits the pins I would say he did his job.
If you roll the ball and it thumps over the gripping holes or never gets into a roll then he didn't do such a good job.

I googled Dave Olm. He was a regional bowler with several titles and has been in the bowling business for many years. Cut and pasted from BowlersMart web site...

Dave has a 40 plus years in the bowling business and has drilled thousands of balls in his life. With experience in several different levels of bowling, Dave has seen it all in bowling from just starting out to the top level of competition.
Bowler Profile
13 PBA Regional Titles
27 800 Series
50 300 Games
USBC Open Team All Events Champ 1995
Florida State Hall of Fame
World Team Challenge Title 95
30 Years Pro Shop Experience

I also found post on BallReviews Forum that said he drilled ball for the PBA back in the late 90's

Looks like you found a reputable Proshop. I hope there is a reader that can confirm this for you from first hand experience.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:08 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
what do I tell the man? Dave Olm is the pro, in case anyone has info on him. What do I say or do if he measures my hand and takes the ball to the drill. How does a person who knows NOTHING about today's bowling tell a PSO what to do? Since I know nothing, how do I know if he's doing something wrong or right?




The things to tell him are the things you told here, how you bowl, what your looking for the ball to do etc.



Bowling Tip of the Week - A Fireside Chat about Drilling

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Last edited by bowl1820 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:11 am Post Number: #15 Post
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I always look for IBPSIA H.O.T.S. certification.
Anyone can pass an exam for a book or online without experience.
IBPSIA Hands On Training is direct interaction and certification with a master instructor.
I've found the higher years of experience means they've had to change a lot over time to stay current.
Some of them dont. I dont know Dave Olm or his work.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:06 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Dave is in Lakewood, CO now. Sub of Denver.

Thanks for the advice!!


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:15 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Just watched that video two posts above.

What the guy says is that unless you bowl a 220 average, layouts are a waste of time. I beg to differ.

As a derby coach of beginning skaters, I always pointed them in the direction of the best equipment, built to the way they skate, the best they can afford.

I was a sought after skate builder in that i could watch some one skate and tell them where their plate should be, either more or less aggressive for their overall ability as well as where they wanted to be later. I wanted skaters to have fun, but also wanted them to do well. Better equipment, tailored to them makes it more fun since you have more success.

I dont think i want to spend $200 on a ball not to have it drilled FOR ME personally. I used to be a firm 186 average bowler...with a polyester ball! Even rolled an amazing 286 with that ball. I have trophies and honor pins in a box somewhere to prove it.

Telling me that because I am just coming back, and since my so far average is only 150ish I should just drill my ball so it rolls is condescending. I want new equipment that will help me realize my full potential.

So much has changed since the mid 90s when last a bowled with a league. Why shouldn't I get to have the full treatment to help me get back to or even surpass what I did before?


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:35 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Hitch -- Until you can learn more about layouts and ball choices you're going to have to rely on your ball driller a lot. From reading the previous posts it sounds like you've found a good one. First, make sure he watches you bowl at least one game and he locates your PAP (Positive Axis Point) for use in laying the ball out. Then discuss your limitations from the injuries and how serious you are about bowling. See if he recommends a conventional or fingertip grip. Based on what you've posted, if I were fitting you I'd recommend an entry level reactive resin ball to start with. All ball manufacturers have them, my personal choice is the Ebonite Cyclone, pick a color you like. The ball should run around $140 drilled, plus the cost of grips and a thumb slug or sleeve if you want them. When you pick the ball up ask the driller to watch you throw a game or two with it to be sure your release is clean and nothing is hurting your hand. Finally, ask him if he provides coaching and if not if he can recommend a coach for you. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:10 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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JonhP, thank you.

I received a Nitrous yesterday, 11# and I'm going today to pick up my Black Widow Urethane 12# and have them both drilled.

I am going to keep an open mind and hope that Dave is going to look at my game and help me out. All totaled, with the three balls, I will have spent over $400 with drilling on the Tzone, Nitrous and Widow. My 16 year old son wants to bowl league with me and maybe a youth team so if these don't work for me, they might work for him.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:02 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Hitchhiker42 wrote:
Telling me that because I am just coming back, and since my so far average is only 150ish I should just drill my ball so it rolls is condescending. I want new equipment that will help me realize my full potential.

So much has changed since the mid 90s when last a bowled with a league. Why shouldn't I get to have the full treatment to help me get back to or even surpass what I did before?


I'm sorry if I offended you by including that video, it was not my intent to be condescending to you. It was just meant to give a different perspective in regard to decisions about choosing layouts.

And yes better equipment, tailored to you is beneficial no one is saying it isn't.

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