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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:58 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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mrbean wrote:
are any of the older urethane balls still useful today for anything more than spare balls? here are some that i saw.
black hammer.
scarlet quantum.
AMF yellow angle.
ebonite gyro 1.
manhattan rubber urethane.
ebonite avenger.
brunswick phantom.
columbia 300 u2 classic.


I have an original black Phantom and on our dry lanes it is too much ball. I have to play too much left to right and it doesn't quite have enough on the return.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:27 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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mrbean wrote:
are any of the older urethane balls still useful today for anything more than spare balls? here are some that i saw.
black hammer.
scarlet quantum.
AMF yellow angle.
ebonite gyro 1.
manhattan rubber urethane.
ebonite avenger.
brunswick phantom.
columbia 300 u2 classic.

I have two Vintage urethane balls, an AMF Angle Plus and a Brunswick Grizz.
The AMF will not work on a modern normal to high volume house shot.
The oil volume is too high and the type of oil is too slick.
The AMF after a few throws becomes only a spare ball.
The Grizz however, as long as it is at stock 320 grit, will work as long as you keep it right of second arrow in the drier portions of the lane.
On lighter house shots I can actually move in with it and play a 12-10 shot.
At Poway it is far too much ball!
The Judge is a remake of a Vintage ball using a vintage formulation.
It is actually an original Black Hammer.
It too is just a spare ball on a normal house shot even at 320 grit.

The main issue is these older urethane balls were made to hook in a different type of oil that did not have the extreme lubricity of the modern oils. That is why they lose all hook once they get wet.

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High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


Last edited by Nord on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:39 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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spmcgivern wrote:

I have an original black Phantom and on our dry lanes it is too much ball. I have to play too much left to right and it doesn't quite have enough on the return.

Do you recall what drilling it has on it?
There were 4 layouts on the drillsheet. Mine was drilled with the number 3 layout. In dual angles it would be about 70-3 3/8-30.
Also what surface are you using on it?

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:03 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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i remember someone saying that urethane balls get oil soaked and don't hook as much. i have seen this with my hot cell. after about 1 1/2 games i start having to move further right because it doesn't hook back as much.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:40 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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mrbean wrote:
i remember someone saying that urethane balls get oil soaked and don't hook as much. i have seen this with my hot cell. after about 1 1/2 games i start having to move further right because it doesn't hook back as much.


A ball doesn't get "oil soaked" after 1 1/2 games, but the cover does get oily. That's why wiping after every shot is more even important when using Urethane (watch the WSOB video they are wiping constantly).

Your probably starting to hit carrydown plus with some oil on the cover the ball isn't going to move like it did at the start.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:02 am Post Number: #26 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

A ball doesn't get "oil soaked" after 1 1/2 games, but the cover does get oily. That's why wiping after every shot is more even important when using Urethane (watch the WSOB video they are wiping constantly).

Your probably starting to hit carrydown plus with some oil on the cover the ball isn't going to move like it did at the start.

It is really just oil getting into the pores of the surface of the urethane ball the way oil gets into the surface texture of metal.
This is how oil adheres and keeps an object lubricated as it rubs against something.
This is why a urethane ball will become an ice block sliding on a frozen lake after it gets wet.
You must wipe the heck out of it and preferably use an authorized ball cleaner on it during play.
The Hotcell flares so much that carrydown will not occur.
Only non-flaring urethane balls create carrydown as they roll over the same oil line down the lane.
They become like paint rollers painting oil stripes up the lane.
From what I am learning, a non-flaring urethane ball can really create some serious carrydown with modern oils on modern lanes.
It seems this severe carrydown is a product of modern oils.
In the old days (80's) this type of carrydown was not an issue as the oils were different and the volume lighter.
The main concern in the old days was the front breaking down fast and making moves with urethane off of that breakdown to prevent over hook.
Virtually everyone's urethane ball did not flare, but the crazy carrydown and loss of reaction you see today did not happen.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:29 am Post Number: #27 Post
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i had gotten a guru in a trade and when i threw it at the finish it came with it hardly moved at all. so i sanded it at 1000 abralon and it moved more but i really had to crank it to use it on heavy oil. so last sunday i sanded it at 360 abralon thinking that that would work better, and it reminded me of my hot cell only with more back end! it rolled really early but didn't really kick in until the back end. not sure of what kind of layout was but on it (from what little i understand about layouts i would guess a weak low flare layout) but sanded at 360 it reminded me of a really strong urethane ball. although my friend threw it at 1000 (his ball speed is about 11 mph on the monitor and his revs are pretty low too) it hit the dry, made a hard left, and took out a 7 pin. so maybe this kind of reaction can't work with lower speed players, although my ball speed is around 13-14 on the monitor and i have been told that is slow.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:36 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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Todd D who is in my Crow video was struggling the last couple weeks. On a whim he brought out the Crow last week and proceeded to shoot 768 with it.

This week he just couldnt find the correct entry angle to carry with his Katana so.. pulls out the Crow for games 2 and 3 and shoots 230's. Watching how hard that ball hits I might have to reinvest in another one.

Just in case you did not see it...


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:12 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
I think that Sunday's Tournament telecast speaks volumes about modern bowling balls. In this case, the fact that both bowlers on the right side were using urethane, and two out of three bowlers on the left side were using urethane while one was using reactive had a major impact on the outcome of the tournament. ....


I think this ONLY says volumes about the PBA's oil technique.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:49 am Post Number: #30 Post
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ICURNVS wrote:
Todd D who is in my Crow video was struggling the last couple weeks. On a whim he brought out the Crow last week and proceeded to shoot 768 with it.
This week he just couldn't find the correct entry angle to carry with his Katana so.. pulls out the Crow for games 2 and 3 and shoots 230's. Watching how hard that ball hits I might have to reinvest in another one.

I have a Crow in 14lbs with a unique layout on it with flare hole below pin, online with pin and CG.
This is a "Radical" Full Roller layout.
This is supposed to produce medium flare and I expected a medium-early reaction.
Well, it actually produced huge flare and made the ball react very late and very strongly compared to all my other urethane balls!
I had another Crow that I put the Aggressive Full Roller layout on with flare hole up by ring finger.
That ball is the total opposite and is very early and smooth.
The Crow is the second strongest urethane ball I have ever used, only surpassed by Visonary's own Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane ball.
The Crow is even stronger in my opinion than the Black Widow Urethane which pretty much everyone agrees is the strongest urethane ball made today.
I plan on playing them back to back in practice to put this theory to the test.

Here is the Crow layout that produces so much backend.
On the Widow I have a layout that is the Full Roller Equivalent of a "Double Thumb."
So the Crow is longer and snappier and the Widow is much earlier and smoother.
I have generally had accuracy issues with the Crow because it tends to snap so much in the backend but with the Widow it will go where I roll it with no surprises.

And after a practice session I took this photo of the huge flare I am getting on The Crow with this layout.


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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:11 am Post Number: #31 Post
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As a contrast to The Crow and all its flare and backend:
I just uploaded a video showing the ball motion of the Grizz Urethane on Kearny's Big Ben pattern.
This heavier volume is also on Brunswick Pro Anvilane surface.
I am playing a simple up second arrow shot.
Note the extremely subtle ball motion.
There is no snap or back end at all.
This ball just rolls smoothly and predictably.
If you are a shot maker this ball will reward you.
The Grizz has no core and does not flare.
We are talking a single stripe of oil through the middle of the palm.
The layout is a simple CG in palm.
Totally non-advanced old school drilling.
The result is maximum control.
Carry is left in the hand of the bowler.
I included slow and extra slow motion too so you can watch the ball better go through its phases.

The Grizz Urethane ball motion:
https://youtu.be/dxl_Y08iAUc

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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:07 am Post Number: #32 Post
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Tonight I practiced at Parkway.
I took the Grizz to see what it could do on the heavy Parkway oil.
I have the Grizz at 320 Scotch Brite. (Burgundy color pad)
I was able to basically throw it up 11 out to 10 and it would hold the line and roll up and carry very well.
By the third game the Grizz was oil soaked but still seemed to have claws and it did not lose its carry.
What I love about this ball is the total lack of backend or overreaction.
It just rolls up so subtle and can get up the lane without breaking free.
Mistakes to the outside do not over hook.
And misses inside hold.
It's great on spares too.
For my fourth and final practice game I bowled a 207 clean game with the Grizz.
Below are a couple of pics showing how oil soaked it was and then what it looks like after I cleaned it dry.
Attachment:
207 Clean Game with Grizz.JPG


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Axis Rotation: 90
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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:07 am Post Number: #33 Post
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anyone ever used any of the lane #1 urethanes. seems like they would be good

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:05 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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mrbean wrote:
anyone ever used any of the lane #1 urethanes. seems like they would be good

Well, Lane#1 is dead for now, so.

Ordered the new 900G Shadow Ops from my PSO, he lives 600 miles away, and he is in Doha, Qatar at the moment. Will be my first urethane, about time!

EDIT: I lied, Shadow Ops, not Covert Ops!

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:58 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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Just going to say, anyone against urethane can be damned. And I am proof that you do not need high rev rates to throw urethane. First 300/800 last night, and I threw the Hot Cell. Came close last week with 299/798 (actually had front 10 the last 2). Started with the Hypercell Fused and switched to the Trick after an open in the 7th. Then went 26 of 28 with the Trick. Who knows what would have happened if I started with the Trick. I will say the Trick does give me a urethane-like look.

Anyway, this post is about last night with the Hot Cell.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 pm Post Number: #36 Post
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Nice shooting Jazlar!

Almost got to 800 last night myself using my Crow. Went 277, 264, 248 to go 789. I needed a 259 the last game. Started with the first 4 and then left a dead solid 8 pin. I do have a high rev rate and I usually leave 2 or 3 9 pins a night, so I was a little shocked to see it considering how well I was carrying last night. Another strike in the sixth and came up high in the seventh to leave a 3 pin. At this point I had to strike out to shoot 259 on the nose. Struck in the 8th, 9th, and 10th. Left a ringing 10 in the 11th frame and my dream for 800 was over. It is my new highest series though, and it was still a lot of fun.

Urethane can be the right option in many situations, or in my case most situations. The Crow is a really great ball and I highly recommend it to anyone looking for a modern urethane ball. Can’t decide if my next one is going to be the Hot Cell or Black Widow...


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:32 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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Wow guys!
You are both Urethane Gods!
Amazing shooting. Amazing.
Me, a mere mortal, did bowl a 217 clean game last night with my Judge. Lol.

Here is what Ron Machniak had to say about the Widow and the Hot Cell:
Quote:
You may find that the urethane hot cell that roto makes will have more continuation than your widow on oil with its lower diff ratio and larger core volume. Especially with a pin in and motion hole style layout.


FYI Jacob Butruff is using the Purple Hammer in the PBA 60th Anniversary Classic Stepladder Finals:


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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:20 pm Post Number: #38 Post
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I did not take my Hot Cell last night to league. I shot 200 pins less with resin. I wasn't on my game and I had trouble controlling the lanes with resin. The Hot Cell will not be staying home anymore and will be first out of my bag on Tuesday and Thursday nights for the 5 man leagues. I did use it a bit here and there during my other leagues this week, but never started with it. I have also not really thrown my Trick since the 299/798. That is one resin ball that gives me the front to back control. Not sure why I keep fighting over/under and such with resin, but I do.

My current plan is to add some more urethane balls to my arsenal. I'm weeding out some of the overlap with resin. I've had some success in the past during league play with the Arctic Sniper and Rebel Tank, so I'm going to add the Combat Tank. I'm also getting the Shadow Ops. Combine those with the purple and black Hammers that I already have, and I should have a solid urethane line up. Might add a Mix as well.

I also plan to purchase some others down the road, more for trying out than filling holes. I would like to compare the Black Widow to the Hot Cell. Maybe drill it a bit stronger. On paper, depending on the strength of the cover, it should be stronger than the Hot Cell for me. 14lb core numbers for the Hot Cell are 2.57 and .046. Black Widow is 2.50 and .056. I also went with a weaker drilling on the Hot Cell with the pin above my ring (roughly) and the MB kicked a little to the right of the thumb. A stronger drilled Widow should give me a bit more hook, which would actually be a little scary.

I also might pick up the Tank Rampage to see how that rolls. At one time I had 5-6 urethane balls. Looks like I will have at least that by this summer.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:58 pm Post Number: #39 Post
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Great shooting guys! Congratulations! Sometimes it’s all about having a smooth controlable reaction.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:09 pm Post Number: #40 Post
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jazlar wrote:
I would like to compare the Black Widow to the Hot Cell. Maybe drill it a bit stronger. On paper, depending on the strength of the cover, it should be stronger than the Hot Cell for me. 14lb core numbers for the Hot Cell are 2.57 and .046. Black Widow is 2.50 and .056. I also went with a weaker drilling on the Hot Cell with the pin above my ring (roughly) and the MB kicked a little to the right of the thumb. A stronger drilled Widow should give me a bit more hook, which would actually be a little scary.

Based on my own experience with my Widow, which is drilled with Double Thumb layout for Full Roller, it is very early and smooth with very little backend.
Ron Machniak was suggesting the Hot Cell would be much later and more angular.
Also the Hot Cell could be drilled with a Motion Hole to take advantage of that core and make it even longer and more angular.
My Crow is actually very angular and fairly long, it is pretty surprising.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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