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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:02 pm Post Number: #181 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Starting at 7 isn't quite what I consider playing as far inside as possible. I would be trying to start at the 10-11 board and then moving out to 7 in the later games.

Sorry, the True Motion will never roll if I put it up 10 let alone 11.
It will just skid the whole way.
Believe me, I have tried.
I even took it down to 320 grit and it still just slid the whole way.
The coverstock on this ball is amazingly weak and with the axis drill has no flare and with my super low revs...
The furthest left I have been able to get the ball to roll is setting down on 8 1/2.
Anything left of that and no go.
I must stay right of second arrow at all times.
That is why I thought moving a half board or even a quarter board right as the set goes on might fulfill your strategy of getting right of carrydown.

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:24 am Post Number: #182 Post
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What I am saying is start in at 8 1/2 If you can. It will give you more room to move to the outside.
The further inside you can create the carrydown the better it will work as a defense against guys that are bowling inside of you causing them fits in the later games.
And it will be easier for you to bowl around it.

I understand that some days you will not be able to play inside of 7. On those days it will put a premium on your shot making from further outside. You will know where the carrydown is and what you need to do to use it as hold to the inside.

The more accurate you are and hitting your mark the more defined that line of carydown will become. If you are having one of those nights where you can't seem to hit your mark and spraying the ball all over the place you won't be able to play this strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:40 am Post Number: #183 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
What I am saying is start in at 8 1/2 If you can. It will give you more room to move to the outside.
The further inside you can create the carrydown the better it will work as a defense against guys that are bowling inside of you causing them fits in the later games.
And it will be easier for you to bowl around it.

I understand that some days you will not be able to play inside of 7. On those days it will put a premium on your shot making from further outside. You will know where the carrydown is and what you need to do to use it as hold to the inside.

The more accurate you are and hitting your mark the more defined that line of carydown will become. If you are having one of those nights where you can't seem to hit your mark and spraying the ball all over the place you won't be able to play this strategy.

Tonight was my first league night at the new lanes called Surf bowl.
They have a perfectly defined house shot.
Mountain in the middle with super blocked on outsides and squeaky clean backend.
I was great for game 1 and 2 playing up 8, but then the shot went away fast by game 3 and moving right with my target did not help the ball roll up.
The ball was lazy as hell and I actually missed a lot of easy spares right by a touch because it would not roll up.
Finally by the 8th of game 3 I moved my feet right and my target left onto second arrow just to see what would happen.
Now the ball would get perfect length, hold the line and then roll hard and strike.
A very, very odd result that I have never seen with this ball before.
Normally at Parkway if I try to stand right and roll down and in over second arrow it simply will not roll.
Now I am totally confused as to what was happening at Surf bowl.
Carry down, or too much friction killing the ball when I was going up 8 and then trying up 7?
Why did squaring up and going through the oil up second arrow make the ball suddenly have so much hitting power?
I established tonight with a 170 avg.

And one other question:
What grit is lane shine on a ball?
The True Motion after last night has track marks through the palm.
They are duller in appearance than the rest of the ball.
If I let the ball keep tracking like this and don't touch up the finish, what grit will these track lines eventually be?
I know in the old days with rubber balls they liked it when a ball got broken in.
They said it had a better reaction.

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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:06 am Post Number: #184 Post
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Nord wrote:
Finally by the 8th of game 3 I moved my feet right and my target left onto second arrow just to see what would happen.
Now the ball would get perfect length, hold the line and then roll hard and strike.
A very, very odd result that I have never seen with this ball before.
Normally at Parkway if I try to stand right and roll down and in over second arrow it simply will not roll.
Now I am totally confused as to what was happening at Surf bowl.
Carry down, or too much friction killing the ball when I was going up 8 and then trying up 7?
Both, The affect of you making carry down also creates a dry spot Early on the lane that will make your ball read too early and lose energy too soon.
Why did squaring up and going through the oil up second arrow make the ball suddenly have so much hitting power?
You lined up to roll straight through your carrydown and let it hold the line to the pocket, Striking because you were hitting the 17 1/2 board at the pins.

Comments in color above

Once you have found a line and it starts to fail, try moving your feet 1 maybe 2 boards to the Left and keep looking at the same spot at the arrows. This gets you to project the ball outside your carrydown and it moves you into the oil in the heads.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:28 am Post Number: #185 Post
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I think you guys are seriously overestimating what Nords 150 rev rate is doing to the lanes and I highly doubt Nords accuracy is within a 2 boards where he is laying the ball down and where he is at the breakpoint. And this is not even taking into account when others are throwing reactive with him and changing the lane conditions with him


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:32 am Post Number: #186 Post
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Thank you for those tips Eric!
I will give it a try.
And yes, I generally can stay within two boards of accuracy with the True Motion, actually when I am really on, I can hit a board or less fairly consistently.
That is how I know my line is going away.

Tonight at midnight I did some experiments at Parkway.
I took the True Motion and tried playing different areas of the lane to observe the results.
I also took my Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane.
I started out with the TM for two games and then switched to the Purple.
First, you have to understand that for the last 3 weeks I have only used one ball, the True Motion.
I have gotten used to it and have adapted my release and approach to get the most out of it.
When I went to the Purple..OMG...
This ball is so super strong that it was basically not useable for me now with my new way of rolling.
I had to move my feet 7 left and my target 4 left into the oil and even then I had difficulty getting the ball down the lane before it broke free!
What a difference.
I also think the coverstock on the Purple has some kind of particles in it.
When I was touching up the surface by hand with a 2000 grit pad using water, my right hand was holding the ball and moving a bit on the ball as I used my left to sand it.
Well, my index finger got friction burned by the ball surface!
And rubbing my hand over the ball surface I can feel something grabbing my skin that I don't feel on other balls.
Hammer did something with this coverstock to make it real strong.

After a couple of games I put the Purple away and went back to the True Motion and it was a relief to get ease and control back.
But this gives me an idea, how about a Purple Pearl with an Axis drill to tame it and make it a ball up option for me?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:23 pm Post Number: #187 Post
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gunso wrote:
I think you guys are seriously overestimating what Nords 150 rev rate is doing to the lanes and I highly doubt Nords accuracy is within a 2 boards where he is laying the ball down and where he is at the breakpoint. And this is not even taking into account when others are throwing reactive with him and changing the lane conditions with him

I used to bowl with my my Grandfather, a full roller with very similar speed and rev rate to Nord. He was throwing the Black Beauty, a rubber non-flaring ball. Also on my team was the house pro. He was the one that explained to me what was going on with the lane condition. He was rolling the New reactive ball X-Caliber, I was rolling the Black Phantom. He explained how he had to loop the ball around where Grandpa Bill was rolling so his ball wouldn't hang in the line of carry down and that I needed to do the same thing just not stand as far left as he was because his ball hooked more than mine did.

Another example on today's conditions, My wife bowls with her 78 year old Aunt, guess what ball she rolls, a 60 year old 16# Black Beauty. It is the only ball she has ever owned. 7 mph on the scorer and Way less revs than Nord. Every week the wife would have issues with the carrydown. Telling me that by the 3rd game her Tenacity won't hook. So I explained to her what is happening and her scores at the end of the season prove to me that I am not overestimating what Nord is doing to the lanes.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:10 pm Post Number: #188 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
...I am not overestimating what Nord is doing to the lanes.

I would actually think that my lower rev rate combined with a purposely non-flaring ball is creating more rapid carry down than a high rev bowler would with a normal flaring ball.
I would think the high rev bowler would be trashing the lane and taking oil off fast while my low rev and straight ball would be painting it down again and again.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:46 pm Post Number: #189 Post
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Nord wrote:
I would actually think that my lower rev rate combined with a purposely non-flaring ball is creating more rapid carry down than a high rev bowler would with a normal flaring ball.
I would think the high rev bowler would be trashing the lane and taking oil off fast while my low rev and straight ball would be painting it down again and again.

The thing is the high revers are not bowling on the same line as you. 3rd arrow players swinging the ball are utilizing the same breakpoint as you and once you put up enough carrydown to make you move your line it will be getting into the high revers way causing them to skate their breakpoint. What ever they wiped up getting the wash out or worse you will be putting right back on your next ball especially if you tug one and it skids the oil line all the way to the pocket.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:12 pm Post Number: #190 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The thing is the high revers are not bowling on the same line as you. 3rd arrow players swinging the ball are utilizing the same breakpoint as you and once you put up enough carrydown to make you move your line it will be getting into the high revers way causing them to skate their breakpoint. What ever they wiped up getting the wash out or worse you will be putting right back on your next ball especially if you tug one and it skids the oil line all the way to the pocket.

So since all the players on my teams play right and are lower rev, am I only creating trouble for the high rev players who play inside out and have the same breakpoint as me?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:26 pm Post Number: #191 Post
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Nord wrote:
So since all the players on my teams play right and are lower rev, am I only creating trouble for the high rev players who play inside out and have the same breakpoint as me?

Essentially yes. You will be creating hold for the guys that have a breakpoint outside of yours.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:45 pm Post Number: #192 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Essentially yes. You will be creating hold for the guys that have a breakpoint outside of yours.

Good, I like to see high rev players suffer. :twisted:

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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:24 am Post Number: #193 Post
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Question: Can the Axis drill be done on a ball with an asymmetric core like the Black Widow Urethane?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:49 am Post Number: #194 Post
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Nord wrote:
Question: Can the Axis drill be done on a ball with an asymmetric core like the Black Widow Urethane?


Why bother? Buy a pancake urethane instead of wasting money on cores you arent using.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:55 am Post Number: #195 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Why bother? Buy a pancake urethane instead of wasting money on cores you aren't using.

I want the Widow Urethane for the coverstock.
But actually, with an Axis drill, the core is in play as far as RG is concerned.
This ball has a super low RG so with an Axis drill it will rev up very fast and roll very early.
So that is why I asked if an Axis drill can be put on a Asymmetric core ball.

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Axis Rotation: 90
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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:59 am Post Number: #196 Post
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Nord wrote:
I want the Widow Urethane for the coverstock.
But actually, with an Axis drill, the core is in play as far as RG is concerned.
This ball has a super low RG so with an Axis drill it will rev up very fast and roll very early.
So that is why I asked if an Axis drill can be put on a Asymmetric core ball.


Nord, when the PAP crosses the Pin to Spin line it revs up.
It never does on a Pin on PAP ball.
What you are seeing is the interaction of the coverstock with the lane surface.
Save your money.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:47 am Post Number: #197 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Nord, when the PAP crosses the Pin to Spin line it revs up.
It never does on a Pin on PAP ball.
What you are seeing is the interaction of the coverstock with the lane surface.
Save your money.

I don't think that is fully true.
I can feel the difference in how the ball comes off my hand.
It rolls off immediately. It feels like it has zero resistance to rotation.
Going between it and my Purple Hammer the other night, I could feel the difference.
The Purple resisted rotation, while the True Motion just rolled off like silk.
You can see the difference in the videos too.

Here is something I found online about this effect:

"Axis weight is best described as a drilling pattern designed to produce little or no track flare and get the ball into an early roll with little backend reaction.
The core is positioned along the initial spin axis which places the core in a stable position.
Using an axis weight layout, your bowling ball will be initially rotating about the minimum RG axis, which is a stable core position.
Since the ball is rotating about the low RG axis, it is easier for you to rotate the ball off of your hand which gets the ball into an earlier roll."

Also, I am not aware of any modern urethane balls with coverstocks as strong as the Widow, or Purple, or Crow that only have a pancake weight block.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:37 am Post Number: #198 Post
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Since you obviously have money to spare go for it. Dob't know ehat specs to go after to make it legal but it should be fairly easy to get little to no flare.

Put the pin in the pap and get the drilling angle as close to 0°-90° 180° or 270°. 90° is probably the easiest but not sure how weird your pap is. That puts the Psa in a stable position as well making it not increase flare. Try taking into account that the psa will move slightly to your thumbhole.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:43 pm Post Number: #199 Post
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Nord wrote:
Question: Can the Axis drill be done on a ball with an asymmetric core like the Black Widow Urethane?


Yes, If you go back and look through the Phoenix stuff from your other discussions about the axis layout. they used balls with MB's for axis drill layouts.

there were two ways used also the "Pin on PAP" version:
Attachment:
asymaxisbal01.JPG


and the " MB on PAP"

Attachment:
AsymmetricCoreAxisBalance2[1].pdf




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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:59 pm Post Number: #200 Post
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Cool.
Thanks for that clarification on asymmetric cores.
Looks like the key is put pin on PAP and make sure Pin, CG and Mass Bias are in perfect line with grip center, then use a balance hole if needed to level out the static weights.
Is a longer pin (4-5") with low top weight (1-2 oz) a benefit for this layout?

It's not that I have money to burn.
I am selling a lot of my other bowling balls to raise cash.
I want at least two more balls with the Axis Weight layout to experiment with.
If this layout is the ticket for me, then I need to pursue it.
The very idea of balls not fighting me anymore is such a relief.

In the short term, I am thinking of getting one more ball with a much stronger urethane coverstock than the True Motion.
Probably the Purple Hammer or Widow.

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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