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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:32 am Post Number: #121 Post
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RPM: 450

Wow!!! :o

I am 150 RPM. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:56 pm Post Number: #122 Post
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Nice vid jimmydanny . I would advise filming horizontally though, it looks better. :)

I will try to get some videos as well. I had promised. I have my Shadow Ops drilled 40 x 4.5 x 50 but i have about half your RPM, or around 300 anyway, so it will be interesting to compare.

I tried it on a 45ft 4 to 1 ratio pattern, and for me it worked playing pretty much in front of the pocket, tight angle. If i missed right though, it could not of course recover. But if i missed left, it just stayed in front of the pocket, which was reassuring.


Last edited by TheJesus on Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:38 pm Post Number: #123 Post
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TheJesus wrote:
Nive vid jimmydanny . I would advise filmimg horizontally though, it looks better. :)

I will try to get some videos as well. I had promised. I have my Shadow Ops drilled 40 x 4.5 x 50 but i have about half your RPM, or around 300 anyway, so it will be interesting to compare.

I tried it on a 45ft 4 to 1 ration pattern, and for me it worked playing pretty much in front of the pocket, tight angle. If i missed right though, it could not ofcourse recover. But if i missed left, it just stayed in front of the pocket, which was reassuring.

When filming one lane only, vertical is preferable to me, less clutter of other people and lanes around. Especially when you got a backswing in danger of hitting the moon! ;)

Our 44ft is 3.39:1 ratio, so its pretty much the same difficulty, or in the same area (ratio means little without tapes). I found the ball did come back if I missed right, if I hit the outer boards early, it came back for steak and potatoes, like R Pedersen says.

Might be the pattern, might be the rev rate difference that does that. But it seems to be a "heavy oil" urethane, to the degree that exists. Works very well on long patterns with heavy oil, and it worked awesome on the same pattern 15 games later too ;) Moved 15 boards in compared to the "outside" shot, but I could get it to the pocket consistently enough!

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:02 am Post Number: #124 Post
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Tried the Axis Weight True Motion at the other house that I bowl league at now called Surf Bowl.
I had taken the True Motion up to 1000 grit and it did very well at Parkway.
Well it did even better at Surf.

The lanes were carried down from earlier open play and all the other players using reactive were finding it hard to get their balls to hook.
Only one player who was using a Crux Pearl and playing 7 board down and in was having success.
The True Motion was unaffected by the carry down.

I started with the same target line as Parkway, right foot on 11 1/2 rolling up 7.
The reaction was perfect and I closed the first game with a 200 with one open frame.
Second game, the reactive balls started to dry up my line and I became confused and I made the wrong moves.
My ball started to go high and I moved inside with my feet while keeping the target the same and it still went high.
I then moved my target in two boards and that was a mistake as now it would not roll up.
I got two splits and one washout and closed with a 154.

In game three I thought about what happened and how my adjustments were wrong and realized I can't try to make reactive resin adjustments with an Axis Weight drilled ball with a Vintage urethane coverstock.
That is why I got lost in game 2.

So I went back to my original target and foot position and before I made my first shot, I made a subtle adjustment that seemed counterintuitive for a ball that was going high, but was correct.
I moved my foot half a board right and my target one board left.
So, from right foot on 11 1/2, rolling up 7, I moved to right foot on 11 rolling up 8.
Now the ball would hold and then roll right in and carry.
Closed with a 206 clean game.

The Axis Weight True Motion at 1000 grit is allowing me to play house shots, in different houses, exactly the same.
It is also teaching me how to make very, very subtle adjustments to keep the shot going.
Because of the Axis Weight drill the ball rotates smoothly off my hand with little effort which allows me to have less bad releases compared to other balls I have used.
I am also picking up almost all my spares now that are not splits.
I bowled a 560 series tonight but note, I only had 10 strikes over those 3 games.
My scores consisted mostly of spares (17 spares) and I only had 4 opens in that series.

The bottom line is, the Axis Weight True Motion is allowing me to become a much better bowler.
I now have a ball that doesn't fight me and provides a very consistent reaction.
I also notice that the True Motion does sometimes get a tiny bit of flare.
Two closely spaced oil rings as you can see below:


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:43 pm Post Number: #125 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
Our 44ft is 3.39:1 ratio, so its pretty much the same difficulty, or in the same area (ratio means little without tapes). I found the ball did come back if I missed right, if I hit the outer boards early, it came back for steak and potatoes, like R Pedersen says.

Might be the pattern, might be the rev rate difference that does that. But it seems to be a "heavy oil" urethane, to the degree that exists. Works very well on long patterns with heavy oil, and it worked awesome on the same pattern 15 games later too ;) Moved 15 boards in compared to the "outside" shot, but I could get it to the pocket consistently enough!
I have a bit more speed than you, and 300 RPM , so mine has a harder time to turn i guess. Urethane balls regularly read early anyway. I haven't figured out how to use it from far right yet. Sometimes it works well, others it just hooks too much. Still learning...


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:58 pm Post Number: #126 Post
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I am liking my Shadow Ops so far as well. My main house decided to take a bit of length off the middle a few weeks back. Not only did it make it even harder for me to bowl with resin, it also makes urethane hook more. I either have to throw it harder or swing it more.

Last night we had our playoffs in my one 5 man league. One night, bowl a different team each game. 8 teams. Winner moves on, loser is out. I tried using a Venom Shock and Venom Shock Pearl for the first two games. Only had a look on the right lane in game one. Ended up a few pins below average in game one and about 40 in game two. We had no practice in game two. Still, we managed to squeak by and make the finals.

Finals were on a fresh pair and we were allowed one shot on each lane. I decided enough with resin. I've tried over the past few weeks, but just can't hit any big scores and control the back end consistently. I've tried different balls, surfaces, etc. So I pulled out the Shadow Ops. I am calling mine the Death Star because of the way it looks and the way it obliterates the pins. My max rev rate is probably in the 300-350 area, but I generally throw with more speed.

I went spare, 5 bagger, spare, 4 bagger, and 8 count (left a 4-9) for 266. High on the pair. My lefty teammate shot 258. We ended up winning the championship.

I'm sick and tired of seeing the hate towards urethane. If you don't like it, don't use it! But to sit here and claim it is bad ball reaction and doesn't hit hard, etc. or that it is an "easy way out" as I read on one facebook post... Come on man! Thought resin was the easy way out. I love resin when the shot is there for it, but why keep struggling when urethane matches up better? Use the tool that works the best!


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:10 pm Post Number: #127 Post
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If it wasn't for how strong US league bowling is (which IMO is a joke compared to sport bowling), urethane might see even more use. Some pros swear to it, and the insane amounts of hook makes the lane oil amount go up steadily. We might need a ruling from USBC stopping the madness at some point. Either that or let the rules make more sense, in terms of static weights, which is based on balls from 60 years ago.

Either we get a lot stronger balls with looser static weight rules, or we see more urethane and maybe rules against insanely strong equipment, which I do kinda hope. 25ml is the de factor standard now, some PBA patterns are close to 30ml oil. Its madness.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:12 pm Post Number: #128 Post
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Haha Death Star, nice one ! Personally i never had a urethane ball, this is my 1st one, and so far i like it.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:45 pm Post Number: #129 Post
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I sure don't hate urethane, I sometimes hate being matched up with bowlers using old school urethane but that is my failing, not a coverstock failing or anything my opponent is doing "wrong". On the contrary, I don't feel I need an arsenal of urethane rocks but I like my Natural a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:51 pm Post Number: #130 Post
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Like 56bird says, its not the bowler using urethanes fault for another bowler struggling because of his use of urethane, its the other bowlers failure to change his game to suit the lanes as they are! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:33 pm Post Number: #131 Post
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Nord heres new urethane review by tamer.

Hammer Black Widow Urethane Review by TamerBowling.com


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:30 am Post Number: #132 Post
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jazlar wrote:
I went spare, 5 bagger, spare, 4 bagger, and 8 count (left a 4-9) for 266. High on the pair.

I'm sick and tired of seeing the hate towards urethane. If you don't like it, don't use it! But to sit here and claim it is bad ball reaction and doesn't hit hard, etc. or that it is an "easy way out" as I read on one facebook post... Come on man! Thought resin was the easy way out. I love resin when the shot is there for it, but why keep struggling when urethane matches up better? Use the tool that works the best!

Great bowling!
And yes, I also am tired of the urethane haters.
In fact, when there is a tournament on TV and they are using reactive, I kinda go "ho hum" but if I see one or more players using urethane, then I sit up and get excited.
That is because it is harder to score well with urethane and requires more skill generally from the bowler and I like to see that challenge from the players.
I also like to see bowlers using more direct lines to the pocket and keeping the game simple.

And actually, for myself, using a non-flaring ball with a vintage urethane coverstock, has actually been improving my play and scoring.
How can anyone argue with that?

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:17 am Post Number: #133 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Nord here's new urethane review by tamer.
Hammer Black Widow Urethane Review by TamerBowling.com

Very nice video.
The guy has a massive hand, but still, he did show how he had to play the ball and how not to play it.
Even with his 450 rpms he could not go left to right through the thick of the oil.
He also couldn't stand right and go down and in.
He had to play the traditional high rev house shot line, play through the oil to the dry and back.
Bounce it off the dry.
Actually when he played this shot a tad more squared up, the ball carried even better.
Yeah, the Widow is a lot of ball!

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:59 am Post Number: #134 Post
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Nord wrote:
Very nice video.
The guy has a massive hand, but still, he did show how he had to play the ball and how not to play it.
Even with his 450 rpms he could not go left to right through the thick of the oil.
He also couldn't stand right and go down and in.
He had to play the traditional high rev house shot line, play through the oil to the dry and back.
Bounce it off the dry.
Actually when he played this shot a tad more squared up, the ball carried even better.
Yeah, the Widow is a lot of ball!

Nord, you will never see me hate on Urethane. I have always had a Urethane in my arsenal.
Currently I have the Blue Hammer 80-3-45 Motion Hole. I will eventually provide some video of it in action.

I would question the layout 40-5-30 midlane layout for for a matched bowler with higher tilt/rotation.
Put a better layout on it and the results seen would have been better. I really would have like to seen this bowler use a 60-3.5-60 Control type layout or even a 70-3-30 Benchmark type layout.
With a better layout he could have been playing closer to the dry keeping the pocket on front of him.

I have drilled up 5 balls with the Gas Mask core and can attest to the fact that the layouts with this core can greatly affect the ball motion. I am bummed out about Hammer not being able to put that core in a 13 pound ball. Unfortunately the 13's have a low differential (.030) Symmetrical core in them. Thus my choice to go with the Blue and its .055 differential at 13 pounds.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:51 am Post Number: #135 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Nord, you will never see me hate on Urethane. I have always had a Urethane in my arsenal.
Currently I have the Blue Hammer 80-3-45 Motion Hole. I will eventually provide some video of it in action. Thus my choice to go with the Blue and its .055 differential at 13 pounds.

I would love to see some video of the blue.
I assume you are talking about the new Blue from Hammer?
That ball is very straight.
It is not a real urethane ball.
It is a kind of urethane/reactive hybrid.
Yet it is very smooth and straight.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:20 am Post Number: #136 Post
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Nord wrote:
That is because it is harder to score well with urethane and requires more skill generally from the bowler and I like to see that challenge from the players.


I'm not putting down urethane when I say this, but that's clearly not the case if the pros are choosing to use it. No professional is going to intentionally hinder their performance when a title is on the line.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:07 pm Post Number: #137 Post
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flibblesh wrote:

I'm not putting down urethane when I say this, but that's clearly not the case if the pros are choosing to use it. No professional is going to intentionally hinder their performance when a title is on the line.


Exactly right. Let's not get carried away, the pros are using whatever they believe gives them the best chance to win.

Also, if you tell me you score better with urethane but scores bowled with urethane are somehow more valid, I guess I just don't know what you are really trying to say.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:35 pm Post Number: #138 Post
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flibblesh wrote:
I'm not putting down urethane when I say this, but that's clearly not the case if the pros are choosing to use it. No professional is going to intentionally hinder their performance when a title is on the line.

56bird wrote:
Exactly right. Let's not get carried away, the pros are using whatever they believe gives them the best chance to win.

True and true.
The pros are trying to win and will use the ball that gives them the best chance.
However, despite a urethane ball giving them a better chance on the condition, I still believe it requires much more skill from the pro to throw it and win with it.
Resin may not be the best ball in some cases, but modern resin still does things urethane cannot.
For most medium to higher rev bowlers, resin is going to give them the best chance to score.
If a player chooses to disadvantage themselves by using urethane and still wins, in my book that is a much greater achievement than if they had used resin on the same condition.
56bird wrote:
Also, if you tell me you score better with urethane but scores bowled with urethane are somehow more valid, I guess I just don't know what you are really trying to say.

This is still a mystery to me, so perhaps you can help me to understand.
Bear with me a moment.
I have had maybe 25 bowling balls over the years.
Mostly resin, recently some urethane.
As a whole, the results I have gotten on house shots with resin in all the houses I have been in league at over the last 6 years have been spotty week to week.
Some weeks I am scoring well and others terrible.
Perfect example: I used my Rack Attack at 1000 grit at Kearny and it couldn't not strike, I take it to Parkway and it wont even hook. Then next week I take it to Kearny and it also is a fail and next week at Parkway now it is good.
What the heck?! Who could live with this?
I can't bring 10 balls to the lanes every time I go and try them all in 10 min of practice to see which is best.
I have high flare, low fare, high grit, low grit, medium grit and so on resin balls and they are all super touchy and inconsistent.
My modern urethane balls are also touchy, but not as bad.
With modern urethane balls like the Widow, the Crow, the Scorcher and the Purple, if there is not enough oil, then they are too strong and I am forced inside where they get over/under.
My average has not improved over the last 6 years that much.
It had gone from 150 to 175 and then recently it started to drop again.
My Parkway house average had dropped to 149 and my Poway avg to 159.
I had been trying to use reactive balls like everyone says I should do and I see everyone else scoring real high with.
It just didn't work out for me.
Then I started using modern urethane and if there was a lot of oil then I was doing better.
But on those days the lane was burned out then I was dead.
Then one day I got an old 1989 Grizz urethane ball and laid it out with a simple CG in palm layout and took it down to 500 grit and suddenly I am bowling better.
This ball does not flare at all.
It has no high tech core.
I can just aim and fire and it will go right where I throw it.
Problem is, it does not hit that hard so it limits my scores.
But it gives me an idea and I get a modern urethane ball that has the same vintage urethane coverstock as the Grizz but with a modern core (Dynamicore) designed to increase energy at the pins.
The True Motion.
I then drill it with an Axis Weight layout so it does not flare.
After some tweaking of the cover to find the right reaction (Stock grit was best after all) it rewards me with much greater control and power than the Grizz.
Now, using a ball that essentially only goes straight and allows me to stand right and take advantage of the free hook in house shots, I am improving my average and spare shooting and becoming a better bowler and having fun again.
If the ball does something wrong, I know instantly that it was me, not the ball or the lane.
I know this.
It is not like the other balls that will do weird stuff on a perfect shot and leave me confused and depressed.
This ball knows its job and is actually teaching me how to bowl if that makes sense.
It works the same at Parkway as it does at Kearny and now also at Surf Bowl.
No difference week to week.

Is it harder to score with a True Motion with an Axis Weight layout than resin balls?
I think so.
I have to be very, very accurate and consistent in hitting a one, or half board target at the arrows.
But when I do, the ball is a laser guided bomb, it will not go off course.
With this ball and layout, it is not about what the son of that pro bowler told me one day: "House shots are easy, you just have to create area."
There is no area with this ball, you either thread the needle, or you miss.
Yet, I am scoring higher with this approach and my average is rising and I am getting more clean games.
I know if I gave this same ball to any of my teammates and had them try to score with it that it would be a disaster for them.
The same might be true of most league bowlers who grew up with resin and developed their style and hand to accommodate resin.
Perhaps this ball works so well for me because my ancient style of bowling requires and ancient style of ball.

Well, that is my True Motion story.
I would love to hear your thoughts.

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:55 pm Post Number: #139 Post
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Honestly I just think your release specs make you an “outlier”, meaning what works for most might not work for you, and what works for you might not work for most.

I remember on a telecast many years ago (obviously), Bo Burton made a comment something to the effect of “ball speed much lower than 16 mph makes your ball reaction very sensitive to lane condition.” Kind of a sweeping generality there and not specific whether he meant average speed, off the hand or at the pins. Still your ball speed isn’t even close to that so it certainly applies. I can picture how a reactive resin ball might exaggerate this tendency and a non-dynamic urethane ball might minimize it.

I’m not an authority on any of this though so take it with a healthy grain of salt.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:32 pm Post Number: #140 Post
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56bird wrote:
Honestly I just think your release specs make you an “outlier”, meaning what works for most might not work for you, and what works for you might not work for most.
I remember on a telecast many years ago (obviously), Bo Burton made a comment something to the effect of “ball speed much lower than 16 mph makes your ball reaction very sensitive to lane condition.” Kind of a sweeping generality there and not specific whether he meant average speed, off the hand or at the pins. Still your ball speed isn’t even close to that so it certainly applies. I can picture how a reactive resin ball might exaggerate this tendency and a non-dynamic urethane ball might minimize it.
I’m not an authority on any of this though so take it with a healthy grain of salt.

That does make a certain sense I think.
Since my ball speed is low, there is plenty of time for a ball to do something bad by the time it makes it to the pins.
A dynamic ball, flaring, churning, reacting, may be to me, like a balloon released into the wind.
But a weaker cover stock ball, with an Axis Weight layout designed to make the ball remain stable, like having a gyro inside the ball, may be keeping that ball on course like a real gyro stabilizes a rocket in flight.
The Axis Weight layout is preventing the True Motion from being affected by things that would, and have, caused me untold frustration when using reactive balls, or strong, dynamic urethane balls.

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