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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:09 pm Post Number: #141 Post
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Reactive balls are prone to over reaction.
Bowlers with enough speed do not experience this. Ones with less speed definitely see this.
Rev dominant bowlers also experience the over reaction.
These are definitely 2 types of bowlers that are benefiting from the use of Urethane.

My lack of ball speed makes me rev dominant. Rolling Urethane makes me a better bowler on many different conditions. It only makes the game more difficult if I try to get deep inside and swing the lane. I know when I get to this point moving inside 3rd arrow I need a ball with more backend reaction and reactive fills that need well. I could add another Urethane to my arsenal that would work better than my Blue Hammer or I could use Nord's method and ball down and have a less aggressive Urethane to my arsenal and keep myself in my comfort zone. But when the lanes dictate the deep inside line and you have the ability and reactive equipment to play there I am not going to fight it I will without much thought put the urethane down and use a stronger ball.

I am seriously thinking about adding another Urethane to my arsenal so I can keep the Blue Hammer at the shiny surface it came with and have it as the ball down rather than the first ball out of the bag. I am finding I have to get pretty deep inside to keep up with the transition from the reactive guys burning up the 3rd arrow track. It would be nice to be able to pull out a shiny urethane and stay away from their burn.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:46 pm Post Number: #142 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Reactive balls are prone to over reaction.
Bowlers with enough speed do not experience this. Ones with less speed definitely see this.
Rev dominant bowlers also experience the over reaction.
These are definitely 2 types of bowlers that are benefiting from the use of Urethane.

My lack of ball speed makes me rev dominant. Rolling Urethane makes me a better bowler on many different conditions. It only makes the game more difficult if I try to get deep inside and swing the lane. I know when I get to this point moving inside 3rd arrow I need a ball with more backend reaction and reactive fills that need well. I could add another Urethane to my arsenal that would work better than my Blue Hammer or I could use Nord's method and ball down and have a less aggressive Urethane to my arsenal and keep myself in my comfort zone. But when the lanes dictate the deep inside line and you have the ability and reactive equipment to play there I am not going to fight it I will without much thought put the urethane down and use a stronger ball.

I am seriously thinking about adding another Urethane to my arsenal so I can keep the Blue Hammer at the shiny surface it came with and have it as the ball down rather than the first ball out of the bag. I am finding I have to get pretty deep inside to keep up with the transition from the reactive guys burning up the 3rd arrow track. It would be nice to be able to pull out a shiny urethane and stay away from their burn.

I think this is an excellent summary of my situation.
However I find it weird that a Blue Hammer, I assume you are talking about the remake that comes out of the box at 4000 grit, would force you to play third arrow.
This ball is very weak, especially at stock 4000 grit compared to the Black Hammer, Purple Hammer and Widow Urethane.
All of those three are far earlier and stronger than the Blue Hammer remake that is not really a urethane ball, but is actually a very weak urethane/reactive hybrid.
If you want a weak urethane ball that will work on drier conditions, or when resin has chewed up the lane, then the True Motion seems the ticket.
It is the smoothest ball I have used.
True, I do have an Axis Weight layout on it, but even with a normal layout, I think it would still have a somewhat similar reaction.
Do you have the Blue Hammer remake, or an original one from the 80's?

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 am Post Number: #143 Post
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Nord,
I am rolling the New Blue. at 13# the differential is .055. Mine is not a weak ball. I have about 1/2" between flare lines. With the Base layout of 80-3-45 and factory surface it was a skid flip reaction. Very straight and long to the breakpoint completely out of the oil pattern. I was leaving lots of 9 pins with it.
So I sanded it down to an 800 grit dull surface This gave me a good midlane read but now it lacked punch on the backend so I added a Motion Hole which was my initial plan with this ball from the beginning. I went back to the 4000 grit finish but I found it not finishing. it needed alot of friction from the lane itself to get it to finish. The Motion hole with the 3" pin to PAP really smoothed out the reaction. I went back to the 800 grit and shoot above average just about every time I use it. But I need to refresh the surface before each set. That is why I am considering the Black Widow urethane for a dull piece and bring the Blue back to shiny for the burned up conditions.

As for your comment on the urethane not being a true urethane, it does not absorb oil, it stays on the surface. While it is definitely not the original Blue coverstock, it is not reactive. I had the original it would not shine by mechanical means, Sure you could use car polish to make it shine, I knew a guy who actually did that to shine his equipment. The new Blue does not hold dull surface well at all.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:09 am Post Number: #144 Post
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The new Blue Hammer uses the hybrid coverstock that Hammer calls "Reacta-Thane."
It is a reactive coverstock that is very, very mild.
It has closed pores I think so it does not absorb oil.
It is very, very smooth and mild.
I think a balance hole was a mistake for a urethane ball.
A motion hole makes a ball go longer and then snap hard.
Because the Blue it is not a normal reactive, it will not snap hard like a motion hole is designed to produce.
Remember, urethane is about early hook and set and then heavy roll.
You want urethane to read early and then arc in gently.
If you get the surface matched right then urethane will retain a ton of energy.
I tried my True Motion at 320 and 500 and it lost hitting power.
When I took it back up to stock 1000 grit I can stand right and roll it up 7 board all night and it will arc in and hit real hard.
The Widow is a lot of ball
If you have to go to third arrow with the Blue, then you will be lofting the gutter cap with the Widow.
It is way, way, stronger and earlier than the Blue which is a toy by comparison.
So be careful.
The original Blue, like most urethane balls from that era, had real hard coverstocks that did not lane shine.
Heavy mechanical industrial sanders would put the finish on them and it was virtually impossible to change that grit with normal ball spinners.
Remember, urethane depends on mechanical friction, not chemical friction like reactive balls.
Are you a two hander?

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:03 am Post Number: #145 Post
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Nord wrote:
The new Blue Hammer uses the hybrid coverstock that Hammer calls "Reacta-Thane."
It is a reactive coverstock that is very, very mild.


The new Blue Hammer uses what Hammer calls "Performance Urethane" coverstock.

"Reacta-thane" was what they used for the new Burgundy Hammer.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:42 pm Post Number: #146 Post
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Nord,
I am 1 hander thumb in bowler.

The balance hole is far from a mistake. My plan for this ball was to emulate what I had back in the day wwith the Brunswick Phantom. I am very pleased with the results.

I have done 5 Motion Holes all with different pin to PAP measurements. The results have been directly proportional to the pin to PAP distances. Pin to PAP's close to 5" ended up skid snap and the shorter pin to PAP 3" became a much smoother rolling ball.

Has anybody attempted to alter the surface of the Widow urethane?
Unfortunately the Widow at 13# is Symmetrical and only .030 differential. I will be getting creative with the layout to make it a medium strength Asymmetrical when finished.
The important part of the equation is the ability or lack there of to alter the coverstock.

Unfortunately your lack of speed and rev rate prohibits you from seeing the potntial of many of these balls. Not to mention the lack of layout choices. While I complain about my lack of ball speed I am way less speed challenged as you by almost 5 mph.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:20 pm Post Number: #147 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Nord,
Unfortunately your lack of speed and rev rate prohibits you from seeing the potential of many of these balls.

So you are basically saying that unless a player can throw fast, with a lot of revs, then modern bowling ball technology does nothing for them?
And in my case may actually hurt my game?
And that is why a ball with an Axis Weight layout and a vintage urethane coverstock is working so well for me?

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:26 pm Post Number: #148 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:

Unfortunately your lack of speed and rev rate prohibits you from seeing the potntial of many of these balls. Not to mention the lack of layout choices.


Well, remember Eric, he is a full roller! So layouts are limited at best for him. I think he has found 'his' layout for his game & hope his avg. goes up to the 190+ range.

To Nord re: a previous statement on why he has a little 'flair' going on w/ the True Motion w/ double oil ring. I believe you are seeing that bcuz the CG is NOT inline as prescribed & I've illustrated to you previous. It's not as stable as it could be in a perfect scenario but close enough to wreak the benefits of the drilling. Would love to see you throw the TM & the Grizz back to back on same condition w/ an axis tape & a rev tape as well. I think you've picked up a few revs w/ the axis balance drilling.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:49 pm Post Number: #149 Post
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Nord wrote:
So you are basically saying that unless a player can throw fast, with a lot of revs, then modern bowling ball technology does nothing for them?
And in my case may actually hurt my game?
And that is why a ball with an Axis Weight layout and a vintage urethane coverstock is working so well for me?

What I am saying is slow ball speed is a hindrance and you see it more than I do because I am able to get mine up to 16 mph off my hand. I struggle with the high end balls unless there is longer oil to play with. Shorter patterns and walled up house shots make them about unusable for me. Think about this, try almost doubling your rev rate and imagine what your ball reaction would be. That is where I am. If I had 2 mph more speed I might be one of the resin ball proponents bashing others for the use of urethane. I get it all the time at the lanes, comments like "your not using F#@*&^9 urethane are you?" or "put that piece of s#9)+ away" or "Are you going to F#(*\& the lanes up again tonight?"
I keep the ball wipeded off and it is high enough flare I don't mess the lanes up any more than a speed dominant bowler throwing a Cash right up 2nd arrow.

You left out part of the quote about the lack of layouts available to you because of you being a full roller and yes, imagonman, I was fully aware of that.
Nord, for you, ball choice is a premium and the fact that the manufacturers are bringing back the urethane is a blessing for your game. I believe that slower speed bowlers were not the reason urethane is making a comeback. It is the rev dominant no-thumb 2 handers that are really creating the demand. Guys like you and me are just benefiting from it.

For bowlers that are Not full rollers and can take advantage of the core technology and layouts to delay the roll then modern technology can help them. I am unfortunate because I am using 13# and the Asymmetrical cores are not that plentiful and when they are available they are just not as Asymmetrical as their big brothers. Thus my prolific use of Motion Holes.

So yes, too strong of a ball will hurt your game. Making you try to roll it faster decreasing your accuracy. I know for me I am so much more accurate when I can relax and just roll the ball without forcing it. I have said it before and I will say it again, For me, Urethane makes the game easier and makes me a better bowler.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:33 am Post Number: #150 Post
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imagonman wrote:
Well, remember Eric, he is a full roller! So layouts are limited at best for him. I think he has found 'his' layout for his game & hope his avg. goes up to the 190+ range.

I am working hard with the True Motion to bring up my average.
I feel I can do it. I trust the ball. I know it will only do what I make it do.
Maybe someday I will have that 190 average.
Tonight in league I was not bowling as accurately and consistently as I wanted.
I was not hitting my target line consistently.
I was having an off day.
I only averaged 166 for the night.
But you know what?
I was not upset at all, or depressed like I would normally be when bowling under average.
And you know why?
It's because of the True Motion.
This ball only does what I make it do.
If it got a bad result I could say, "that was me."
It was a relief to know that I made a mistake and was punished for it as I should be and when I made a great shot I was rewarded.
There is a confidence and comfort when you know it is only you now, not the lane or a weird untrustworthy ball.
I have been on a ball roller coaster ride for years.
Honestly when I bowled league I was always afraid of what would happen.
I never knew for sure what my ball would do this night.
There is an unreasonable amount of pressure when you feel a victim of a ball and lane.
But with the Axis Weight True Motion this never happens.
It just does the same thing week in and week out.
It's all on me. Thank God, finally...
Also, the True Motion really has a lot of energy.
I don't know, but I think that Dynamicore is really working.
Even my partner was amazed at how hard this ball hits and forgiving it is on light hits.
The True Motion can get into a very heavy roll with the Axis Weight layout.
Many times it was rolling hard and hitting very light and somehow slapping that 5 pin out time and time again.
On shots that crossed over I would get very lucky and not get splits, it would just leave a 4 pin standing.
Lots of pin action I don't normally get.
And this is with a 14 lb ball.
I decided, when I ordered this ball, to drop a pound in weight to 14lbs.
The Brunswick lighter core tech allows weights from 12-16 to have the same core specs and performance.
I wanted a lighter ball that I could use for the rest of my life even into old age, so I figured if I got used to this lighter weight, then I could stick with it into old age.
Also I am not a big guy and it is actually easier to control 14 vs. 15 lbs.
Yep, I will keep working now on pushing that average up.
Despite an under average performance tonight, I only missed two non-split/washout spares and that was totally on me.
There is comfort in that.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:48 pm Post Number: #151 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
So yes, too strong of a ball will hurt your game. Making you try to roll it faster decreasing your accuracy. I know for me I am so much more accurate when I can relax and just roll the ball without forcing it. I have said it before and I will say it again, For me, Urethane makes the game easier and makes me a better bowler.


I agree with this 100%. I will use resin when the shot allows me to have reasonable control and/or urethane just won't match up. That is a lot of sport patterns for sure. It's also when the house shot isn't extremely wet/dry and/or doesn't have crazy back ends.

I was actually able to use resin in league last night, and my 2000 grit Hyper Cell Fused at that. However, we were bowling the ghost team. The shot still broke down on the outside by game 3 with only 4 of us on the pair, and the left lane never had great hold from the get go. I was able to play the tuck shot on the right, but had to go away from the pocket more on the left. Had a pair of 234s to start, but then decided to test the waters with the Son!q (and then finished with the Shadow Ops) in game 3. Only managed a 182 that game. We still got all our points though (1st place with a week to go in the third). I often use the Monday night mixed league to test things/practice. Oddly enough, it is my highest average.

I will say this, I'm usually better throwing urethane from the start than trying to "ball down" to it, simply because of the difference in ball motion. A weaker urethane is easier to transition to, but I see too many people trying to go to urethane thinking it is for the burn. I only pulled out my Shadow Ops late in game 3 for testing. Looked great on the left lane. Didn't quite find the line on the right. Only had 2 shots and they both went high.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:18 pm Post Number: #152 Post
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I did the lanes yesterday, had like 3 games on them with kids playing with 6lbs and bumpers, then 4 more today with senior bowling. Then I tried to play with the Shadow Ops, it outhooked everything I have, except my weakest reactive ball, Brunswick Inferno, which easily hooked 15 boards... 44ft, 24ml on fresh, 3.3:1.

Urethane outhooking Marvel Pearl and Timeless... Shadow Ops isn't a urethane ball that fits into the "time to pull out a urethane ball" it seems.

The more I play with it, the more I like it, but to me, this ball acts like the old particle balls of the 2000s! Storm Secret Agent, which I miss every day, started at the arrows, and was so smooth, and actually kept moving all the way to the pins, and didn't burn up too easily.

10 years of trying to find something that acts like the Secret Agent, this seems to be the closest!

EDIT: The reason the Inferno hooks is a composite of 1000 grit abralon and ball spinner, while the other two are polished up.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:52 am Post Number: #153 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
...I tried to play with the Shadow Ops, it outhooked everything I have...

Urethane outhooking Marvel Pearl and Timeless... Shadow Ops isn't a urethane ball that fits into the "time to pull out a urethane ball" it seems...The more I play with it, the more I like it, but to me, this ball acts like the old particle balls of the 2000s!

That sounds really good.
An era 2000 particle ball?!
Perhaps I will pick up a Shadow Ops and also do a better Axis Drill on it.
If it is as strong as you say, this could be a heavier oil ball for me.
Something that allows me to move my line from right of second arrow, to on, or slightly inside of second arrow and still get the ball to roll up early and set, yet not lose control of the arc.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:21 pm Post Number: #154 Post
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Of the 5 urethane balls I currently have, I see them this way:

Hot Cell and Black Hammer are early hook and control. The Hot Cell is clearly the stronger of the two. Both are also better throwing at 10 pins and going straight at spares on the house shot (without having to modify my release a ton).

Shadow Ops, Purple Hammer and Combat Tank are better when you need a little more length and shape on the back end. I'd put them in that order in terms of strength. The Combat Tank is sort of in between the two motions, but I will still group it here. Despite being cleaner, they still pick up earlier than most resin. They are also less continuous than most resin. I've tried using them for 10 pins and I normally have to do some modifications to my release to keep them from hooking away down lane.

I still plan to pick up the Black Widow at some point. I'd still like to experiment with some layouts as well (motion hole, rico, double thumb, etc.). I was going to motion hole the Shadow Ops, but I have yet to put that on an asymmetric (I've put motion hole on 10+ symmetric resins over the years).


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:08 am Post Number: #155 Post
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jazlar wrote:
Of the 5 urethane balls I currently have, I see them this way:

Hot Cell and Black Hammer are early hook and control. The Hot Cell is clearly the stronger of the two. Both are also better throwing at 10 pins and going straight at spares on the house shot (without having to modify my release a ton).

Shadow Ops, Purple Hammer and Combat Tank are better when you need a little more length and shape on the back end. I'd put them in that order in terms of strength. The Combat Tank is sort of in between the two motions, but I will still group it here. Despite being cleaner, they still pick up earlier than most resin. They are also less continuous than most resin. I've tried using them for 10 pins and I normally have to do some modifications to my release to keep them from hooking away down lane.

I still plan to pick up the Black Widow at some point. I'd still like to experiment with some layouts as well (motion hole, rico, double thumb, etc.). I was going to motion hole the Shadow Ops, but I have yet to put that on an asymmetric (I've put motion hole on 10+ symmetric resins over the years).

I would agree the Widow at stock 500 grit is early and smooth and the quickest hooking of my normal urethane balls.
The Crow at stock 500 grit however is just as strong as the widow, but it goes longer and has more backend snap.
Of course the Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle urethane is the strongest of all by far.
It will hook through oil that the other balls can't grip through.
I am curious about the Hot Cell.
Ron Machniak said it would have more continuation compared to the Widow due to the huge core in it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:14 am Post Number: #156 Post
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Ok Urethane Fans, the True Motion Axis Weight experiment begins next Thursday.
I have joined a new league at Surf Bowl.
It is sponsored by the company I work for.
Three man teams.
I have been trying out the lanes every Thursday for the last 3 weeks and they put down a very nice house shot with dry outsides and a squeaky clean backend.
For this whole first season, for better or worse, I will only use my True Motion.
I want to see where my average will go.
Up?
Down?
Nowhere?
One man, one ball.
Old School.
I will let you know how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:28 am Post Number: #157 Post
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Nord wrote:
One man, one ball.
Old School.
I will let you know how it goes.

Hopefully your teammates know how to roll around or through your carrydown.
Informing them on what your ball is doing to the lanes would be a good idea.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:46 am Post Number: #158 Post
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Nord wrote:
One man, one ball.
Old School.
I will let you know how it goes.


EricHartwell wrote:
Hopefully your teammates know how to roll around or through your carrydown.
Informing them on what your ball is doing to the lanes would be a good idea.


Playing devil's advocate here Nord.

But depending on the type of bowlers your teammates are and exactly what you tell them, You could be putting a idea in their heads that you won't be able to get back out.

That whenever something goes wrong with their shot, it must be you and your balls fault.

They might not entertain the possibility that it's something else that's causing the problem it's just you.

If you say I'll be using urethane and it might create a ton carrydown, they will see a ton of carrydown whether it exists or not if their ball doesn't react the way they think it should.

So tread carefully.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:27 am Post Number: #159 Post
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Nord here are a couple of quotes from a thread back in 2011. viewtopic.php?f=3&p=26587#p26587
This is what you are going to do to the lanes.
MegaMav wrote:
If they're inside of 10, its unlikely you'll affect them that much with a reactive.
The oil is so thick in the middle of the lane.

If you're really dead set on affecting them, shoot to score with a urethane up the oil line, anyone left of you will hang at the breakpoint after about a game. Ask rj827 how this works, I did it to him Tuesday on a fresh shot, just him and I.

MegaMav wrote:
It needs to be a ball with a coverstock that doesnt absorb oil, but just scrapes it downlane.
Urethane, Plastic, Rubber are in that category.
Play up the oil line, parallel to 10.

If you want to do well at it, you'll need to shoot to score like this all night, not just in practice.


EricHartwell wrote:
I call it defensive bowling. I use my Original Hammers for that, Messing with the big boys. I actually told one guy I was bowling against he didnt believe me and continued to throw washouts and late pocket 7-10's. Bitching about the lanes the whole time. There was an awesome shot just outside my line but he continued to play inside of me. My carry down in the 3rd game let me get to a breakpoint just outside my defence with a oil buffer to the inside keeping my ball from going to high in the pocket

My handicap team is 3 lefties and a stroker that points it from the corner so I dont mess with them. My scratch team is privledged with the information and will sometimes ask me to get the old Hammer out when the backends have too much friction. Smooth out the wet/dry.

I use my particle Big Blue to carve out a line for my own use

Depends on the competition against the Crankers I go for the defence against the strokers I burn my own line in.

Its hard to tell the difference between old Blue and Big Blue unless my competition pays close attention to what I am throwing. They just think im throwing my blue one

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:16 am Post Number: #160 Post
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At Surf Bowl, my new partners know I only use urethane.
One of them has a big hook and loft and rolls between second and third arrow, an area of the lane I will not be in ever for a strike line with the True Motion, it would never roll.
My other partner uses either his Black Hammer or his Crux Pearl.
He generally plays the same line as I, up 7 down and in.
Depending he may move his target left if his Crux is hooking too much.
With the Hammer he only plays it if he see good read with it.

Now, interestingly, my doubles Partner at Parkway almost always plays the same line as I.
Right up 7 with a slight bevel out to 6 and back.
I will lay a line of oil down with the TM and on his shot he will take it away with his Code Red.
So he helps my ball keep hooking and I am helping his ball from overreacting as the set goes on.
We have been doing this since I got the True Motion and it seems to be working very well.
Both of our shots have been very consistent now.
We have beat every team we have played since I got the TM.

Before the TM we were third from the last of 26 teams.
Now we moved up to 12th with 3 weeks to go.

Prior to this I was using my Scorcher and my Widow and the lane would break down very quickly with both of us rolling over the same line and control was a big issue.
But now it seems we are complimenting each other.

Another thing I see that helps me when I play against reactive balls is that my TM slowly gets more and more black with oil and it gets weaker as the set goes on.
But, they are taking oil off with their resin balls at almost at the same rate that my ball is getting weaker.
So thank you resin rollers for making my shot not change! :lol:

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