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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:19 pm Post Number: #201 Post
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Nord wrote:
Cool.
Thanks for that clarification on asymmetric cores.
Looks like the key is put pin on PAP and make sure Pin, CG and Mass Bias are in perfect line with grip center, then use a balance hole if needed to level out the static weights.


Or you use the MB on the PAP option

Quote:
Is a longer pin (4-5") with low top weight (1-2 oz) a benefit for this layout?


Not having done it, I don't know.

Here I ran across this about axis weight which might be of interest.
Attachment:
Axis Weight Ball Layout.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:42 pm Post Number: #202 Post
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I'll sit here in amusement reading urethane guys trying to take flare out of an asymmetric ball.
This is the antithesis of BowlingChat's intent.
We're going backward rather than forward.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:48 am Post Number: #203 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

Or you use the MB on the PAP option



Not having done it, I don't know.

Here I ran across this about axis weight which might be of interest.
Attachment:
Axis Weight Ball Layout.jpg

Very fascinating, thank you!
"Barbell Axis Weight."
That's a new one.
It sounds cool, putting the pin in the Negative Axis Point.
But I think I will be trying the Pin in PAP with a Widow urethane.
We will use great care to make sure pin, CG and MB are all perfectly in line to the midpoint.
My assumption was a longer separation of CG and Pin would help keep more weight away from the top and positive side thus preventing the need of a balance hole.
This super low RG gasmask core should spin up fast and combined with the strong cover stock, should make it super rolly and controlled, but also allow the ball to handle more oil than the True Motion and maybe provide a touch more miss room right than the True Motion does.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:21 am Post Number: #204 Post
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Nord wrote:
"Barbell Axis Weight."
That's a new one.


If I remember right there was also another way to do the old barbell layout.

You placed the Pin on the bowtie of your track (So you needed one of your other balls to get the bowtie location) and placed the cg/mb on a line to your PAP (a 0° drill angle in other words). A Symmetrical ball was recommended also.

I never saw it done so can't say to how well it worked or reacted.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:59 am Post Number: #205 Post
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When I compared the Purple to the True the other night two things stood out.
1. The Purple cover stock is way, way stronger and forced me left with target and feet. I no like that.
2. The Purple jumps in the back. This was frustrating as hell because I would make what I thought was a great shot and at the last second it would go left hard and miss the pocket. I would be watching the ball and saying, "great shot," it would be arcing, arcing and then all of a sudden the jump left occured and I was like "wtf?!" Very, very frustrating and this is exactly what I want to get away from in my bowling balls. I am accurate enough to lay the ball down on a line that I know will make it to the pocket, I don't want the ball to help me in the back, just stay on course and roll.

I also have noticed something about the True Motion, the appearance of the coverstock has changed.
I experimented with 320, 500 and 800 and eventually went back to stock 1000 grit.
Since I last put 1000 grit on the ball I now have probably 30 games on the ball.
The ball is showing scuff lines through the palm, kinda like my rubber ball shows.
But, also like my rubber ball, the overall surface has become blacker and smoother.

Below are two photos showing this change.
The first is the ball before I ever used it just after it was drilled.
The second photo I took today after approx 30 games.
The ball is cleaned well after league so there is no oil in the ball.
What has happened here?

True Motion with zero games on it:
Attachment:
True Motion brand new.jpg


True Motion with 30 games on it:
Attachment:
True Motion after 30 games.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:19 pm Post Number: #206 Post
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Nord wrote:
Since I last put 1000 grit on the ball


Quote:
The first is the ball before I ever used it just after it was drilled.
The second photo I took today after approx 30 games.
The ball is cleaned well after league so there is no oil in the ball.
What has happened here?


The O.O.B. on the True Motion is 500/1000 if all your using is 1000 then it won't look quite as dull as new. You would need to add the 500 base grit.

Also if your wet sanding, it's going to look shinier than if you dry sanded.

Just a suggestion if your on a spinner after wet sanding 500 and 1000 give it a light dry hand sanding with a dry 1000 pad for the dull look.

I would also once a week use Clean'N Dull on it, it works on urethane well also.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:16 pm Post Number: #207 Post
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Probably just what we call Lane Shine. (Taken from #16) viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4651

Here is a quote from Rick Hitt "! Scanners are a fun toy to kill time with "surfaces alter as much as 30 to 60 %on the lanes in 4 to 8 frames! 4000 grit to 1000 grit surface is very minimal ball reaction change on heavier oil volumns!"


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:27 pm Post Number: #208 Post
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I am thinking lane shine and the polishing of the ball returns is the cause.
The True Motion actually seems to have a very soft surface.
It has track scuff marks now, my other urethane balls never get any track marks on them.
It is also very smooth now to the touch, but squeaks like a reactive ball when I rub my fingers across it.
This True Motion cover stock is in many ways now like a rubber ball.
Comparing it to my Hardwick, they seem very similar in how use has changed them and how they feel and sound to the touch.
Like my Hardwick, I will just let the lanes and ball returns do what they will to it and see what happens to it over time as far as reaction.
I will see what happens once the ball reaches equilibrium.
It may get better.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 am Post Number: #209 Post
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Wow, tonight in league at Parkway the True Motion would not grab the lane at all.
Even standing way right and rolling over 7 or even 6 the ball would slide the whole way like a spare ball.
Only by standing right foot on 10 and rolling super slow up second arrow would the ball get up the lane and then roll in the backend and have a chance of carrying.
If I hit the line perfectly and kept the speed slow it would strike, but if I missed a 1/4 board right or threw a fraction too fast, it would never hook and if I missed half a board inside it would cross over.
It is super, super frustrating when a ball will simply not grab the lane at all.
The lane shine apparently has killed the True Motion ball reaction.
My partner with his Code Red was killing it though, as were the other players using reactive.
It was a strike fest for them, but not me!
My partner bowled a 716 and I bowled a 493.
In the third game my carrydown totally messed up the other team!
They were getting spits and washouts and leaving flat 10's like crazy.
It was amazing to see it suddenly start to happen to them.
Their balls would be hooking and then just stop hooking when they hit my puddle.
My partner though, was playing around me and was getting amazing carry.
He almost had a 300 in game 2.
The moral of the story is the True Motion is not enough ball at Parkway.
I actually am sore in the shoulder from trying to roll the ball so slow.
I could not free swing, or the ball would be too fast.
Even rolling the ball at super slow speed, even for me, the speed meter still showed my ball at 11.35 mph on average at the pins.
It was just skidding so much.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:53 pm Post Number: #210 Post
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That's a good reason for you to carry at least one reactive resin ball at all times. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:30 pm Post Number: #211 Post
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Nord wrote:
Wow, tonight in league at Parkway the True Motion would not grab the lane at all.
Even standing way right and rolling over 7 or even 6 the ball would slide the whole way like a spare ball.
Only by standing right foot on 10 and rolling super slow up second arrow would the ball get up the lane and then roll in the backend and have a chance of carrying.
If I hit the line perfectly and kept the speed slow it would strike, but if I missed a 1/4 board right or threw a fraction too fast, it would never hook and if I missed half a board inside it would cross over.


Nord, with all due respect - and I'm trying to be helpful here - what you're describing sounds impossible. I appreciate what you are doing in terms of managing equipment and complimenting your own style, but I do have a question.

If the True Motion was not enough ball, then how was it crossing over on small (1/2 board) misses left? Where was the hold? The ball was clearly capable of hooking. Wouldn't those shots have behaved like all the rest if there was insufficient friction between the cover stock and the lanes?

We've all had weeks where we are scratching our heads trying to reconcile ball motion with what we think we are seeing. Sliding on 6/7 and crossing over on small misses left sounds like a 1:1 sport or a reverse block, but the other bowlers were not having problems. So, I am thinking the condition was ok.

Lately, I've been coming back to something Eric H said recently. If my reaction seems "weird", I look at the ball and count the oil rings. If I'm not seeing (at least) 5-6 rings, then I'm too far right, or the line I'm playing is too scorched. With less porous equipment I might see 12-15. If the ball is dry, I'm in the wrong place.

The other thing I think about is advice from a coach/pro who told me he expects to have 3 boards (at the arrows) of area to get to the pocket on a THS. I think 2 is probably more realistic, but if it feels tighter than that, you're in the wrong place (feet and/or target), wrong ball, or both.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:43 pm Post Number: #212 Post
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stevespo wrote:

Nord, with all due respect - and I'm trying to be helpful here - what you're describing sounds impossible. I appreciate what you are doing in terms of managing equipment and complimenting your own style, but I do have a question.

If the True Motion was not enough ball, then how was it crossing over on small (1/2 board) misses left? Where was the hold? The ball was clearly capable of hooking. Wouldn't those shots have behaved like all the rest if there was insufficient friction between the cover stock and the lanes?

We've all had weeks where we are scratching our heads trying to reconcile ball motion with what we think we are seeing. Sliding on 6/7 and crossing over on small misses left sounds like a 1:1 sport or a reverse block, but the other bowlers were not having problems. So, I am thinking the condition was ok.

Lately, I've been coming back to something Eric H said recently. If my reaction seems "weird", I look at the ball and count the oil rings. If I'm not seeing (at least) 5-6 rings, then I'm too far right, or the line I'm playing is too scorched. With less porous equipment I might see 12-15. If the ball is dry, I'm in the wrong place.

The other thing I think about is advice from a coach/pro who told me he expects to have 3 boards (at the arrows) of area to get to the pocket on a THS. I think 2 is probably more realistic, but if it feels tighter than that, you're in the wrong place (feet and/or target), wrong ball, or both.

Steve

I do not take offense and appreciate all the help I can get.
Let me clarify a bit.
When I arrived at the lanes there were tons of plastic house balls on the racks and kiddy ramps were on our lanes.
I did two practice games on the adjacent pair and it was a disaster.
Zero hook. I just hunted to try and find any grab, but there was none.
My pair had the same non-reaction for me.
Normally with the TM I can stand with right foot on 11 1/2 and roll easy up 7 and the ball will sweep in no problem.
But on these lanes nothing on the right side would hook.
The ball would just go straight and washout, or leave a 5-7 or 8-10 or 4-5-7 on pocket hits.
I could see the TM could not roll.
But I noticed that if I tried to make spares in the middle of the lane, throwing through the oil, that when the ball hit the middle back of the lane, it would grab really hard and miss the spare left.
This gave me the idea, which seemed absurd since the ball was not grabbing the lane in the normally drier areas, that maybe there was still some dry patch back there.
So I stood way right and went down and in up 10 board.
I had to keep the ball speed really slow, even for me.
But, if I hit the line flawlessly then the ball would float through the oil, never moving and then as soon as it got past the 2/3 mark it would start to grab and then roll and if it hit high flush it was a perfect packed strike.
But, if I missed even a 1/4 board right it would never hook at all, or if I threw even .30 mph faster it would not hook, or if I missed inside by only 1/2 board it would go Brooklyn.
This was what really happened.
I think it all was the result of a super weak coverstock that had become lane shined and the axis drill preventing the ball from flaring or having any dynamics.
Also I am certain the lanes were messed up and carried down by all the parties from earlier.
And having super low revs also made it bad.
The other bowlers were using very strong reactive gear and had much higher revs.
My partner around 300 rpms and the others even higher rev rates.
But, if they got the ball right, they would washout too and if they missed inside it would crossover too.
There were a lot of splits and washouts from all players, I was not the only one.
But my partner was able to go up second arrow like I was and his Code Red would hold the line and then just tuck in at the last second and blast the pins apart.
He was actually standing 5 boards further right than me!
In my opinion, my ball was far, far too weak and did not perform as it has on these lanes for the last month.
It was like bowling with a spare ball on a high volume house shot.
That is what I was faced with.
Now, if I had my Purple Hammer, or Widow, or Scorcher I would have had plenty of hook and likely be forced inside.
But the True Motion is not a lot of ball especially with an Axis drill.
It is actually weaker than my Grizz.
It is just not enough ball for a high volume house shot.
When I got home I cleaned it and dropped the grit down to 500.

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Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:47 pm Post Number: #213 Post
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Whatcha gonna do now that weight holes are deemed illegal & outlawed?? So much for Axis weight being 0-0-0 or anywhere close to it!
https://bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622331019


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:03 pm Post Number: #214 Post
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Nord, that makes more sense. Your ball was more sensitive to the carrydown due to open bowling before league began. The area in front of the head pin was still fairly clean, so the ball hooked when you missed left.

I guess we're all going to have to plug our weight holes before 8/1/2020. The pro shops will be busy...

"It is important for bowlers to understand the specification for oil absorption will not eliminate any bowling balls from competition, as all current balls will be grandfathered in. Bowlers also should be aware that because the increase in static weights starts Jan. 1, 2020, they will have seven months to have any balance hole plugged so they will be in compliance when the specification eliminating balance holes starts Aug. 1, 2020."

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:22 pm Post Number: #215 Post
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Actually, with allowing up to 3 oz now for static weights, the Axis drill can be done without the need for a balance hole.
I fully approve the changes the USBC has made and support this decision.
I think that modern tech has gotten out of hand and I want to see limits in place that will put the emphasis of scoring back on the bowler.
Balls will still be ridiculously strong, so league bowlers need not worry that the junk strikes they have been accustomed to will suddenly go away.
I would like to see even tighter limits, but this is a good start.
I already plugged the balance hole on my Purple so it would have less flare.
The Widow will need a plug as will the Crow.
Also, since only dry towels are allowed, I guess no more shammys?

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:52 am Post Number: #216 Post
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Nord you don’t know what you’re talking about. Wanna make the scores go lower, easy regulate oil ratio on house shots, period. Put all the hacks on flatter patterns and scoring will go down. Kickbacks and gutter height could also be changed to prevent crazy pin action.

Statistics account for 2% of ball motion, period, it’s proven. On the other hand you can change ball motion 60% with balance holes.

1/2 board adjustments, .3 mph ball speed control, 1/2 board accuracy... really, are you that precise, if you are then you should be playing PBA and making TV shows, hell can a human even see 1/2 a board at 40’... stop playing those easy house shots and join a league that plays WTBA sport patterns, if you can average 200 rolling your current equipment at 5 mph then I’ll shut up.

Oh and if you want to waste your money on a Widow Urethane and kill the core with a layout that’s over 30 yrs old, ineffective and outdated then knock yourself out but I tell you that you will be throwing away money down the drain.

Eric, as much as I like rolling urethane I agree with you, this thread has gone ridiculous and as the creator of the thread I humbly ask you to close it. Sorry, this was never my original intention.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:00 am Post Number: #217 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Eric, as much as I like rolling urethane I agree with you, this thread has gone ridiculous and as the creator of the thread I humbly ask you to close it. Sorry, this was never my original intention.


My pleasure.
Let this be the end of urethane dedicated threads on this forum.
We've seen enough, and if you want to read about urethane ad nauseam, take a look at the older thread.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13042

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