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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:55 am Post Number: #161 Post
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imagonman wrote:
I think you've picked up a few revs w/ the axis balance drilling.

I just looked at some of my past videos in slow motion and compared them to the True Motion video.
With the Scorcher I am getting between 7-9 full rotations of the ball before it hits the pins.
With the Widow 9-11 rotations.
With the Purple 9-12 rotations.
And with the True Motion I got as low at 8 rotations and as high as 14 rotations with between 10-12 being the norm.
Not sure if this means I am getting more revs or not.
It may just be that the True Motion rolls earlier than the other balls and since I am playing it right of second arrow, it sees more dry earlier than when I use the other balls, which I can't roll out there due to overreaction.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:35 pm Post Number: #162 Post
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The earlier the ball goes into a roll, which increases the rev rate, the more revolutions you'll get. A variation from 8 - 14 seems awfully high. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:50 pm Post Number: #163 Post
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JohnP wrote:
A variation from 8 - 14 seems awfully high. -- JohnP

If you watch my True Motion video, that is what you will see.
If the ball gets left too early, it will grab very late and only get 8 revolutions.
If I get the ball right early, it will roll early and on one shot I even got 15 revolutions.
The average seemed to be around 11 though.


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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:57 am Post Number: #164 Post
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Nord wrote:
If you watch my True Motion video, that is what you will see.
If the ball gets left too early, it will grab very late and only get 8 revolutions.
If I get the ball right early, it will roll early and on one shot I even got 15 revolutions.
The average seemed to be around 11 though.


Okay nord, watching your video for just the strike shots I got you at.

Approx:
120-135 rpm (your revs went up slightly as you bowled)
Release velocity: 13.4 mph
Average velocity: 11.4 mph
Pin Contact velocity: 9.0 mph
Impact Momentum: 253.9 lb f/s (this might be off a little, I didn't remember what ball weight you had.)



What camera are you using? The image looks pretty good.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:09 am Post Number: #165 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

Okay nord, watching your video for just the strike shots I got you at.

Approx:
120-135 rpm (your revs went up slightly as you bowled)
Release velocity: 13.4 mph
Average velocity: 11.4 mph
Pin Contact velocity: 9.0 mph
Impact Momentum: 253.9 lb f/s (this might be off a little, I didn't remember what ball weight you had.)
What camera are you using? The image looks pretty good.

I use 14lbs with the True Motion.
So how do you calculate speed and revs?
When I bowl, the speed monitor, which is at the pins, always shows 10 mph and above for my ball speed.
The way I calculate revs is, I count the total number of revolutions of the ball before it hits the pins.
Then I measure the time in seconds it takes the ball from the moment it is released, until it hits the pins.
I then divide the rotations by the seconds and then multiply that result by 60 to get the revs per minute.
So as an example in my True Motion video:
On one shot the ball revolved 9 times and took 3.30 seconds to reach the pins.
9/3.30=2.72
2.72x60=163 rpms.

The rig I am using for video is:
Camera: Olympus OMD E-M5
Lens: Leica Summilux 25mm at F4.

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Axis Rotation: 90
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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:58 pm Post Number: #166 Post
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Nord wrote:
I use 14lbs with the True Motion.

Okay, That worked out good I was based on 14lbs.

Quote:
So how do you calculate speed and revs?

For the speed measurement, I used a IPhone/Ipad app called "Bowling ball Speed" (aka:Bowl Speed) you need someone to work it while you bowl or use with a video it's pretty accurate.

You input ball weight and then you use it to time the ball from foul line to when it hits the pins and it gives you speed of each roll, Average speed, release speed, pin contact speed and impact momentum.

Attachment:
ballspeed.jpg


The way I calculated the revs is, I guess you'd call it the Clock method.

It uses counting 10 frames of the video & how many hours the ball turns (1 rotation = 12 hours).

Starting from the first frame after the fingers leave the ball, You count how many hours of clock time your tracer tape covers in 10 frames (I watched your finger holes since no tape).

Then multiply the number of hours covered in those 10 frames by 15 and you’ll end up with your initial rev rate.

This is the formula used for calculating rev rate using video :
Video cameras capturing 30 frames per second (standard NTSC video format used primarily in North America): hours per 10 frames * 15 = RPM

In your video you had 8-9 "hours" for the 10 frames after your fingers left the ball, So 8*15= 120 rpm and 9*15= 135 rpm

There are 4 different methods for calculating Rev's, I compared them here:
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?p=99462#p99462


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:15 pm Post Number: #167 Post
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Quote:
If you watch my True Motion video, that is what you will see.
If the ball gets left too early, it will grab very late and only get 8 revolutions.
If I get the ball right early, it will roll early and on one shot I even got 15 revolutions.
The average seemed to be around 11 though.


I wasn't challenging the accuracy of your data. I was suggesting that your release and accuracy isn't as consistent as it should be. Watching the tape it looks like you are quite consistent, but your data suggests otherwise. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:53 pm Post Number: #168 Post
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JohnP wrote:

I wasn't challenging the accuracy of your data. I was suggesting that your release and accuracy isn't as consistent as it should be. Watching the tape it looks like you are quite consistent, but your data suggests otherwise. -- JohnP

When looking at every shot from my True Motion recording session, not just the strikes I posted, I am seeing that the ball will rotate more or less times depending on where it is released on the lane.
Again, if it sees more oil it rotates less and if it sees more dry it rotates more.
I would say the rev rate off my hand remains consistent, it is just the ball and lane that decide how soon the ball revs up or how late, which changes the total number of rotations before the ball hits the pins.

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Axis Rotation: 90
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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:16 pm Post Number: #169 Post
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If you want to calculate proper revs, do it from release to the arrows instead of the full lane. Tape it, and note the times, count revs and find what you need to multiply by to get 60 seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:59 pm Post Number: #170 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
If you want to calculate proper revs, do it from release to the arrows instead of the full lane. Tape it, and note the times, count revs and find what you need to multiply by to get 60 seconds.

So how would I do that calculation?
I am seeing one revolution from the time I release it until it hits the arrows.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:37 pm Post Number: #171 Post
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Nord wrote:
So how would I do that calculation?
I am seeing one revolution from the time I release it until it hits the arrows.


Filming @ 30fps count the revs off hand after the ball clears fingers in 10 frames.
I come up w/ about 3/4 rotation. times 3 for = 1 sec. then times 60 for minute/RPM.
OR to simplify rotations in 10 frames X 180= RPM

So we have .75x180=135rpm's

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Rev_Rate

The arrows/15ft. are used for speed off hand since the ball slows down as it travels the length of the lane. See here for instructions to measure.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... Ball_Speed


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:10 pm Post Number: #172 Post
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imagonman wrote:

Filming @ 30fps count the revs off hand after the ball clears fingers in 10 frames.
I come up w/ about 3/4 rotation. times 3 for = 1 sec. then times 60 for minute/RPM.
OR to simplify rotations in 10 frames X 180= RPM

So we have .75x180=135rpm's

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Rev_Rate

The arrows/15ft. are used for speed off hand since the ball slows down as it travels the length of the lane. See here for instructions to measure.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... Ball_Speed

Wow, only 135 RPMs? Really?
I sure put the "L" in low rev player!
I should be on the staff of a major ball company to test a new special set of balls for the "rev challenged."
No wonder these high tech reactive balls that are supposed to hook the lane just twirl down the lane and do nothing for me.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:37 am Post Number: #173 Post
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here is an interesting urethane ball. columbia 300 classic u2
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Columbia-300-The-Classic-U2-15-lbs-Bowling-Ball-NEW/323208710306?epid=1533844455&hash=item4b40bd88a2:g:vdoAAOSweKda0mtH
here is some more info for anyone interested. (couldn't seem to find when it was released)
http://123bowl.com/bowling-balls/columbia-300/the-classic/

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:55 am Post Number: #174 Post
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mrbean wrote:
here is an interesting urethane ball. columbia 300 classic u2
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Columbia-300-The-Classic-U2-15-lbs-Bowling-Ball-NEW/323208710306?epid=1533844455&hash=item4b40bd88a2:g:vdoAAOSweKda0mtH
here is some more info for anyone interested. (couldn't seem to find when it was released)
http://123bowl.com/bowling-balls/columbia-300/the-classic/

I remember this Coke Classic urethane ball.
It had a super low RG and a pretty high diff.
So this thing should be an early roller which is what we want for urethane.


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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:32 am Post Number: #175 Post
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So last night at Parkway bowl, in league, I had my first experience with serious carry down city.
And no doubt I caused it for myself with the True Motion since I had the only urethane ball and my urethane ball does not flare.
In game one things were pretty dry and the TM was killing it up 7.
It would hold the line then roll right in heavy.
If not for a split in the 9th I would easily have been about 225, but I closed with 191.
Game two I was hitting the pocket but leaving a 10 pin or a 7 pin and got three splits in my attempt to square up.
Closed with 156.
Game three I simply could not get a strike!
Ringing 10 or flat 10 every single shot!
I had 9 spare on almost every frame.
Got one strike finally in the bonus frame of the 10th and only because the 6 pin bounced back and barely had the energy to make the 10 pin topple over.
I tried moving my target inside of 7 and then outside of 7 and I moved my feet left and right but still no go.
Closed with a 182.

When this happens how can you get around it with a ball like I have?
What should I do?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:22 pm Post Number: #176 Post
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Old school lane play. Start as far inside as you can carry. Once you start losing carry you move just outside your line. This becomes hold to the inside and you still have dry boards to the right for that area check. I call it playing around the carrydown.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:05 pm Post Number: #177 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Old school lane play. Start as far inside as you can carry. Once you start losing carry you move just outside your line. This becomes hold to the inside and you still have dry boards to the right for that area check. I call it playing around the carrydown.


Ok, that makes sense and I will try it and see how it goes.
When I move my line right, should I also move feet right as well?

Additionally, I took the grit down just a tad on the TM from 1000 abralon to 800 scotch-brite just to see if the ball deals with the carry down a little better next time but still provides the length I need.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:48 am Post Number: #178 Post
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Nord wrote:
Ok, that makes sense and I will try it and see how it goes.
When I move my line right, should I also move feet right as well?

Not necessarily.
I have enough rev rate where I would move my feet left keeping my same target at the arrows to roll the ball across my line at the midlane getting it outside my carry down at the breakpoint. With your lower rev rate you will not be able to open the lane up as much and will make smaller moves.
Also, the wedge that gets created in the heads must be contended with. Early hook before the midlane. I would actually play the ball to hook 2 times, in the heads where you have pushed the oil downlane to the carry down line then again as you get out to the dry boards. Friction will build in the heads as the midlane gets longer/tighter. That is where you have to play around the carry down.
Moving your feet left to get into more head oil but get the ball outside your line at the breakpoint where you have developed a line of carry down.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:00 am Post Number: #179 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Not necessarily.
I have enough rev rate where I would move my feet left keeping my same target at the arrows to roll the ball across my line at the midlane getting it outside my carry down at the breakpoint. With your lower rev rate you will not be able to open the lane up as much and will make smaller moves.
Also, the wedge that gets created in the heads must be contended with. Early hook before the midlane. I would actually play the ball to hook 2 times, in the heads where you have pushed the oil downlane to the carry down line then again as you get out to the dry boards. Friction will build in the heads as the midlane gets longer/tighter. That is where you have to play around the carry down.
Moving your feet left to get into more head oil but get the ball outside your line at the breakpoint where you have developed a line of carry down.

Because I am using a weak urethane coverstock with an Axis drill and my low rev rate, the ball doesn't have the ability to go much left to right and be able to come back unless the lane is super dry.
The lanes I am bowling on have good volume.
This last Monday I did try only moving my breakpoint right by going 7 out to 5 rather than just up 7, which was where the carrydown line was.
But even though the ball got out to 5, it had a lot of trouble coming back and would hit light consistently.
That's why I wondered if I had to move feet right too to get the ball to square up and hit higher.
So with your carrydown combating strategy, I could possibly start with ball going up 8 1/2 and then inch right equally with target and feet as the set goes on.

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2018 Urethane Ball Thread
 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:09 am Post Number: #180 Post
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Nord wrote:
Because I am using a weak urethane coverstock with an Axis drill and my low rev rate, the ball doesn't have the ability to go much left to right and be able to come back unless the lane is super dry.
The lanes I am bowling on have good volume.
This last Monday I did try only moving my breakpoint right by going 7 out to 5 rather than just up 7, which was where the carrydown line was.
But even though the ball got out to 5, it had a lot of trouble coming back and would hit light consistently.
That's why I wondered if I had to move feet right too to get the ball to square up and hit higher.
So with your carrydown combating strategy, I could possibly start with ball going up 8 1/2 and then inch right equally with target and feet as the set goes on.

Starting at 7 isn't quite what I consider playing as far inside as possible. I would be trying to start at the 10-11 board and then moving out to 7 in the later games.

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