Carry down

Bowling ball related topics including new products, arsenals and comparisons.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
JohnP
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3432
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN

Carry down

Post by JohnP »

I originally posted this as a response to the 2017 urethane ball thread, but decided that doing so would be hi-jacking the thread and have reposted as a separate topic.

IMO, carry down is much more dependent on the amount of flare a ball has than on the surface material. Any ball that has very little flare will result in carry down. If you think a reactive resin surface absorbs oil fast enough to avoid redepositing it on the back ends, just look at the ball when it comes back. It still has oil rings on it, and it's been a significant time since it left the lane. The more the ball flares the less contact the oil rings have with the lane surface, the contact is only near the two bowties. On a ball that flares very little the oil rings are either on top of each other or separated very little, resulting in a long streak of oil on the down lane surface - carry down. My conclusion is that short pin to PAP (without flare increasing balance holes) reactive resin balls can result in significant carry down.

Comments and discussion, please. -- JohnP
gunso
Member
Member
Posts: 291
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 11:47 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Carry down

Post by gunso »

Not surprisingly I aggree with your assumptions.

I also tend to believe that what other people on the lane are throwing have a much larger effect than what one person is doing. For example if one is throwing even and old non flaring urethane and others are throwing high end reactives on a similiar line I tend to think that the carrydown will be absolutely minimal and have minimal effect on ball motion.

One does only need to watch a couple of tour events to notice that even though most if not all of them are throwing urethane at the same pair they still need to migrate left and get the ball to a similiar spot downlane. They then move from the urethane when it doesn't have a fast enough response to friction to make it all the way back.
TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1386
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Carry down

Post by TonyPR »

That sounds very logical, especially if the ball flares on the dry back end, where the bow tie meets is only a small spot on the ball. Wiping the ball good before every shot should also help avoid carry down a bit.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Daryl
Member
Member
Posts: 206
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 5:02 pm
THS Average: 226
Positive Axis Point: 5 13/16 x 5/16 up
Speed: 15.38 at foul line
Rev Rate: 390
Axis Tilt: 18
Axis Rotation: 55
Location: Augusta, Georgia

Re: Carry down

Post by Daryl »

I agree as well and have confirmed this conclusion myself. I have an old Black Hammer with a long enough pin that I have a Motion Hole layout drilled into it. The ball has flare and as a result I have no carry down problems that I use to have using old urethane drilled off the label. Hits like a truck too.

Daryl
Right Handed Stats:
RPM (off hand) 390
Speed (off hand) 15.3 mph
Axis Tilt; 18 degrees
Axis Rotation: 55 degrees
PAP: 5 13/16" x 5/16" up
TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1386
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Carry down

Post by TonyPR »

Those old urethanes get into a roll early and you can really hear when they hit. I am not an expert on this but I think that having no filler, just coverstock and core, affects the coefficient of restitution and that causes them to "hit hard". Currently Brunswick is doing that with their Quantums and Hammer with their 15 and 16 lbs Black Hammer and Purple Hammer.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
champ
Member
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 11:39 pm

Re: Carry down

Post by champ »

I have a theory on carry down. Might be totally nonsense, but I score much better in league environments when I operate under this assumption...

carry down does exist. BUT, not necessarily at the end of the pattern. Reactive balls should be finished with their hook phase and going into the roll phase at that point. Carry down at the end of the patterns shouldn't keep a reactive ball from finishing simply because they are not skidding that far. The common carry down theory assumes that your ball is skidding to the end of the pattern, and then skidding some more due to carry down.

My theory, which again may be nonsense, is that carry down exists about 18 feet down the lane. Reactive balls DO skid that far. Since they are not flaring at that point, I believe they are pushing oil a few feet pas the arrows, where the balls want to start their hook phase. As that first transition takes place, where the lane tightens up, I believe it could be that there is now a pushed down higher volume of oil just past the arrows, thus delaying every bit of transition a few feet. This explains the wiggle effect you hear about a lot.

Operating under that assumption in leagues bumped my scores up. After I make an adjustment for that transition, the next transition is usually a jump inside as the heads start to hook by this point.

In tournaments, where you have larger groups of higher rev players using stronger and newer balls than your average mixed league, I believe the heads burn up fast enough that the first move is usually inside, just like the pros say it should be.
User avatar
snick
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 759
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
THS Average: 196
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 5.5625" x .625 up
Speed: 17 off hand
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Physix
Medium Oil Ball: Storm Streetfight
Light Oil Ball: Rotogrip Hustle Pearl
Preferred Company: Rotogrip
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Carry down

Post by snick »

My gut usually tells me to drill urethanes to flare as much as possible. The logic being that the cover will have a relatively slow response to friction anyway, and balls that flare probably do not create as much carrydown.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron

RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Carry down

Post by EricHartwell »

snick wrote:My gut usually tells me to drill urethanes to flare as much as possible. The logic being that the cover will have a relatively slow response to friction anyway, and balls that flare probably do not create as much carrydown.
I completely agree with you. The higher flaring layouts are also Strong pin positions to get the ball into a roll. Most of the urethane offerings are low differential balls. Use a 5" pin to PAP and the flare will be minimal and carrydown will become a factor.

I am rolling one of the exceptions with the Blue Hammer at 13#, the differential is .055 layout 80-3-45. It has over a 1/2" of seperation between the flare lines. I have to migrate left almost as much as throwing reactives. I also do not experience the affects of carrydown. If there was carrydown I wouldn't leave as many 9 pins as I do. One of the things I do is stop wiping the oil off the ball allowing me to hold my line longer and not have to move as far left as I would with reactives.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Post Reply