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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:48 am Post Number: #201 Post
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found out its a scarlet quantum.
http://123bowl.com/bowling-balls/brunswick-technology-ventures/scarlet-quantum/

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:27 am Post Number: #202 Post
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mrbean wrote:

Totally cool ball! Let us know how it does and please upload a video.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 am Post Number: #203 Post
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river800 wrote:
I am starting to understand more of why Mo does not recommend a urethane ball if a bowler has the choice before buying a ball. People lack the ability to understand ball motion in general and in depth, then using urethane as a crutch because everything goes sideways in the backend on sport patterns specifically.

Urethane is not a crutch, it is a way of life. :D

Reactive is the real crutch, not urethane.

Two Examples:

This Wednesday I bowled in the Parkway Yuletide no tap tournament.
Last year I won my division by bowling a 933 series using my Hammer Dark Legend Solid reactive ball.
This year I only used my Hammer Black Widow Urethane and bowled a 878 series.
If I am lucky I might place and get some money. I did not win.
Did I bowl better or worse with urethane?

Thursday I bowled in our weekly high scratch game tournament.
The high scratch game out of three games wins the tournament.
My doubles partner who is a 220 average player on a normal house shot with reactive, bowled against me as did many other players.
But we were at Poway bowl, super low volume, tons of friction.
No 220 average there.
I used my Hammer Widow Spare polyester ball. The weakest ball in my arsenal.
He used his Storm Code Black reactive, his bread and butter ball.
After the second game I had the high game of the night, a 200.
In game three my partner moved in and rolled through the middle and was able to find a line and bowl a 247.
A pretty amazing game for these lanes. I commend him.
I used Polyester and bowled a 200 and he used reactive and bowled a 247.
He won, I did not.
Did I bowl better or worse than him with Polyester?

Two weeks ago in practice at Kearny, I pulled out my Hammer Dark Legend solid reactive ball.
I bowled three games and got my all time high non-league series, a 645.
It was easy actually.
As long as I hit my target and made a good release the ball struck every single time.
Am I suddenly a 200 average bowler?
Did I suddenly become so accurate and consistent because I pulled out a reactive ball?
Is this really my true bowling level?
Have I just been cheating myself by not using reactive?

I hope you are getting my point.

Reactive is the real crutch.

There are legions of league bowlers using reactive who think they are so very, very good.
I do not for one second believe I am any better of a bowler because I get higher scores with reactive balls.
Not for one second.
I discount all my high scores with reactive.
I laugh everytime I get a new high score or series with reactive.
It is funny actually.
Ask my bowling friends, everytime I pull out reactive and start striking I will walk back to them and say: "I hate reactive balls."

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:48 pm Post Number: #204 Post
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Nord wrote:
Let us know how it does and please upload a video.

i'm not the one who bought it.
although i was close to bidding on this double helix
https://www.ebay.com/itm/QUANTUM-USA-BOWLING-BALL-16LBS/142634444630?hash=item2135ace756:g:cxEAAOSwDEtaPtTm

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:32 pm Post Number: #205 Post
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Nord wrote:
Urethane is not a crutch, it is a way of life!...
Have I just been cheating myself by not using reactive?...
I hope you are getting my point.
Reactive is the real crutch.


It wasn’t my statement and it isn’t something I would go out of my way to say, but I don’t think the “crutch” statement has anything to do with “scoring”. What’s more I don’t expect anyone who has this opinion would argue against the notion “reactives help scoring”. As they would say on Game of Thrones, “It is known.”

I think people call urethane a crutch because it is a front-to-back adjustment. Because it allows a bowler to sometimes stay near his comfort zone rather than adjust to the development of the pattern. Because it drastically reduces potential back end motion and pocket entry angle when pocket entry angle is known to be key for striking percentage.

I have a vivid memory of a bowler in a competitive scratch league a few years ago. This guy was *angry*, I’m talking “veins in the neck bulging, red faced, permanent scowl” angry. I’m pretty sure his rage was for the lane man. He finished his set playing around 8 at the arrows with a plastic ball after his reactive ball couldn’t find the pocket playing from there. This is a 210+ average bowler who has been bowling at this house for many years. IF he had asked me I might have said “I don’t know, maybe move in a few boards and find some oil?” but as I didn’t feel like whupping any ass that night or having mine whupped (always a possibility) I kept my opinions to myself.

Now, I’m not down on front-to-back adjustments like some people here and I really don’t care too much what ball choices anyone else makes. I am conscious of the effect those choices can have on my ability to score in the same pair of lanes, but I’m not doing this for a living, you know? Life goes on whether I shoot 580 or 780 on any given night.

The other thought I’d like to leave this thread with (as the year is about over), imagine if you will two bowlers. One has the style of a bastard child of David Ozio and Brian Voss. Poetry in motion. The other bowls like a drunk Scott Devers on a broken ankle. The one who scores the highest IS the one that bowled the best! This is THE metric we have for assessing bowling performance. It’s not how, it’s how many.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:53 pm Post Number: #206 Post
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56bird wrote:
I think people call urethane a crutch because it is a front-to-back adjustment.


Just to note "people" weren't originally saying Urethane was a crutch, it was Phil Cardinale who made the original statement that players use Urethane as a crutch.

Which in a later statement he tried to explain what he meant by that, He said "I didn't say urethane was a crutch, I said people use it as a crutch." and then he said what he meant by that was "I eluded to them saying when they bowl bad they say they had to use urethane especially in league. That was the crutch, not the ball the excuse."

So according to that the using of a Urethane ball was not the crutch, It was the players saying they had to use one because they were bowling bad with a resin ball that was the crutch.

Plus when you listen to podcast the main reason Phil put forth the idea of using a weak resin instead of Urethane was so you wouldn't mess the shot up for other players.

A lot of Bowling is about adjusting to the conditions at hand, if the player ahead of you is affecting the conditions in away you don't like.

Then you need to learn to adjust, not complain about the other players and tell them to use a different ball or play a different line etc. because you don't like how their playing the lanes and the affect it's having on the conditions for you.

Balls whether Resin or Urethane etc. are just a means to a end, to knock down pins. Each has their own advantages & disadvantages and affect the conditions each in their own way.

As long as it works for "You" be it Urethane or resin use it. It's not your job to make things easy for your opponent, Now in regard to your teammates that's something you have to work out with them.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:08 pm Post Number: #207 Post
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Fair enough, I’m a late joiner to this convo and I don’t listen to a lot of podcasts. I’ve read your quotes of Phil and distillation of them and I guess I still don’t get it. The point eludes me <zing, sorry>.

What is a “crutch”, exactly? Well, google says it “a long stick with a crosspiece at the top, used as a support under the armpit by a lame person.” Well, Phil may or may not think bowlers who resort to urethane are “lame”’ but I don’t think that was his meaning :lol: Metaphorically speaking, a crutch is an item that allows someone to do something they couldn’t do without it. Maybe it was just a really weak choice of words- the fact that he has had to go back and explain and re-explain himself kinda supports this.

Someone says they were bowling bad and had to break out urethane. There is a crutch in there somewhere? Ah well, things happen all the time that are beyond my understanding, this may just be one of them.

“Then you need to learn to adjust” ok, I hear this all the time. Here’s the rub. Some lanes are simply less playable than others, and we as bowlers have some say over that with our choice of ball and line. I don’t criticize bowlers for choosing to use urethane and I’d never have the cojones to tell someone, especially an opponent, that they shouldn’t use it. It’s simply within the rules. Do whatever you think gives you the best chance to win, or heck do whatever you enjoy. I will readily admit that I will likely score better with/against bowlers that work together to develop a pattern (or at least don’t go out of their way to destroy it) than I would with shimwreckers of any variety. If you take this to mean I need to learn to adjust, well... I guess? I think it simply means “harder lanes are harder.” If that’s my “crutch” so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:02 pm Post Number: #208 Post
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56bird wrote:
I guess I still don’t get it. The point eludes me <zing, sorry>.


That was the thing about Phil's comment, He said he was "alluding" to something. When you make allusions to something instead of just coming right out and saying it , it causes confusion.

Quote:
Maybe it was just a really weak choice of words- the fact that he has had to go back and explain and re-explain himself kinda supports this.


Also since he's running a company, he has to watch what he says, so he doesn't offend the customers or the other branches of the company.

Like he can't say just out and out say nobody needs a urethane ball, with Brunswick selling urethane balls BIg B might take exception to that.

Or if Radical decides to start making Urethane at some point, you don't want customers saying "Hey you said nobody needed one before and now your say how great it would be to have this one"

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:26 am Post Number: #209 Post
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May I ask...if a ball makes you a better bowler and the ball is within the rules, why is it a crutch?

Baseball players use the latest technology to get more homeruns. Cyclists use new technology to ride the Tour de France. Baseball players are not using gloves from 1925. Cyclists are not using 75 pound bikes and 3 speeds.

Bowler are not rolling consistent 300 games. They still have to roll the ball, know the pattern, understand what ball will do after a few games.

How is a ball that gives you an easier go and higher score a bad thing? Pros don't play with the same ball, so how would they be on a level lane?


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:42 am Post Number: #210 Post
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IMO there are a lot of bad ball drillers out there and a lot of bad ball motion coming out of shops.
Many shops are old, outdated in education on current technology and just dont understand how to drill balls using a system. They make stuff up based on what they think they know, its usually wrong.

Urethane is so low tech its hard to screw up. People reach for it when their ball motion is bad.
I'm confident, if shops across the globe were on a higher level overall, urethane would be left behind.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:18 am Post Number: #211 Post
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Quote:
56bird
a crutch is an item that allows someone to do something they couldn’t do without it.

Exactly. That was my point about reactive.
It allows the majority of bowlers to do something they could not do without it.
Many league bowlers convince themselves they are great bowlers because they use reactive.
But put a urethane ball in their hands and they become a deer in the headlights.
Now, of course, great bowlers will bowl great with anything and those are the players I greatly respect.
But there are bowlers I know that will never use urethane because they know their scores will drop significantly.
They have urethane balls for spares but I can't seem to talk them into using one for a game or two just for fun.


Quote:
Hitchhiker42
Baseball players use the latest technology to get more homeruns.

Wrong, baseball players are not allowed to use modern tech to hit more homeruns.
No aluminium bats or other super bats are allowed.
Since the dawn of baseball, it has been the desire to keep baseball the same vintage sport it has always been.
Players of the past can be compared to players of the present.
They are throwing the same ball and hitting it with wood bats.
This cannot be said of bowling, or tennis, or many other sports that allowed high tech to change it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:36 am Post Number: #212 Post
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Hello Urethane Fans,

I got my Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane ball and took it down to Parkway lanes for my first session with it.
The ball was left at stock grit of 2000.
The oil was fresh and I was put by myself way up on lane 50 so I could do some videos.
But I was disappointed, there was so much oil it was very, very hard to get this ball to read the lane.
For a gauge, I got out my Black Widow Urethane and even it was having trouble hooking, which was a big surprise to me!
My only thought was, maybe they threw down a huge holiday weekend volume and did not try to shape the pattern like they do for our league house shot.
I was not getting much backend read, or read to the right of second arrow.
Finally I found I had to play directly into the dry, around 7 down and in to get the ball to roll up.
But slight misses inside left splits and washouts as the ball skidded far too long.
Sometimes big yanks left (on or inside second arrow) would hold and strike.
I have a high flare layout on the Purple but even with that layout flare was only 2 inches or so.

I have attached a pic of the layout and I have provided a link to my video of the Purple in action.
I mainly got the ball for when the lanes dry up so much, or the volume is so low, that I cannot use my Black Widow.
I would say that goal has been achieved as the Purple is much, much weaker than the Widow.
But the Purple does hit really hard when it reads the lane right.

Enjoy the video and comments are welcome:

https://youtu.be/g92CsWKBcLk


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:51 am Post Number: #213 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
IMO there are a lot of bad ball drillers out there and a lot of bad ball motion coming out of shops.
Many shops are old, outdated in education on current technology and just dont understand how to drill balls using a system. They make stuff up based on what they think they know, its usually wrong.

Urethane is so low tech its hard to screw up. People reach for it when their ball motion is bad.
I'm confident, if shops across the globe were on a higher level overall, urethane would be left behind.


I see this at my local center so I know it is true about bad ball motion. I see it on the pba tour watching videos and telecasts, then them pulling out urethane because everything else they throw is an over under nightmare.

What would you suggest for something that is much more versatile than urethane but similar motion?

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:04 am Post Number: #214 Post
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river800 wrote:
What would you suggest for something that is much more versatile than urethane but similar motion?


I went over the concept earlier in the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:57 pm Post Number: #215 Post
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Quote:
Wrong, baseball players are not allowed to use modern tech to hit more homeruns.
No aluminium bats or other super bats are allowed.
Since the dawn of baseball, it has been the desire to keep baseball the same vintage sport it has always been.
Players of the past can be compared to players of the present.
They are throwing the same ball and hitting it with wood bats.
This cannot be said of bowling, or tennis, or many other sports that allowed high tech to change it.


Not currently, but if you search, you will find that the lowly baseball bat has undergone changes over it's long life span. Players are not using the same bats as they were in 1860. There are modifications all the time. They are all a standard length, cannot be over a certain weight, made from wood, but not all the same wood. The knob on the end has gone though recent changes. Point is, it's the people who make the rules that determine what can and cannot be used in any sport. Right now the resin reactive cover is allowed and it gives the bowler a higher score at the end of the game. But those balls are not rolling down the lane all by themselves. And the bowlers using them are not bowling 300 games every single time. It's not a crutch, it's new technology that will probably stay around until it flattens the competition. Then it will be up to the rules people to determine if it needs to be banned.

If you want to confirm it's all talent and not the ball, make every Pro use the same ball.

Just my opinion, I'm frequently wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:49 pm Post Number: #216 Post
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Nord wrote:
Hello Urethane Fans,

I got my Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane ball and took it down to Parkway lanes for my first session with it.
The ball was left at stock grit of 2000.
The oil was fresh and I was put by myself way up on lane 50 so I could do some videos.
But I was disappointed, there was so much oil it was very, very hard to get this ball to read the lane.
For a gauge, I got out my Black Widow Urethane and even it was having trouble hooking, which was a big surprise to me!
My only thought was, maybe they threw down a huge holiday weekend volume and did not try to shape the pattern like they do for our league house shot.
I was not getting much backend read, or read to the right of second arrow.
Finally I found I had to play directly into the dry, around 7 down and in to get the ball to roll up.
But slight misses inside left splits and washouts as the ball skidded far too long.
Sometimes big yanks left (on or inside second arrow) would hold and strike.
I have a high flare layout on the Purple but even with that layout flare was only 2 inches or so.

I have attached a pic of the layout and I have provided a link to my video of the Purple in action.
I mainly got the ball for when the lanes dry up so much, or the volume is so low, that I cannot use my Black Widow.
I would say that goal has been achieved as the Purple is much, much weaker than the Widow.
But the Purple does hit really hard when it reads the lane right.

Enjoy the video and comments are welcome:

https://youtu.be/g92CsWKBcLk


Purple (or Black) Hammer are always going to have few flare rings because of them having such a weak core.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:41 pm Post Number: #217 Post
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Nord wrote:
Hello Urethane Fans,

I got my Hammer Purple Pearl Urethane ball and took it down to Parkway lanes for my first session with it.

The stepladder finals of the 2017 PBA World Championship feature Jesper Svensson, Jason Belmonte, Ryan Ciminelli, Kyle Troup and Matt Sanders. Originally aired live on ESPN3 November 19, 2017 and again on ESPN December 31, 2017 from the National Bowling Stadium in Reno, Nevada.



Matt Sanders, Hammer Purple
Kyle Troup, Storm Pitch Black
Jesper Svensson, Storm Pitch Black
Jason Belmonte, Storm Pitch Black
Ryan Ciminelli, Motiv Forza SS, Venom Shock

Urethane, Urethane, Urethane, Urethane, Resin

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:09 pm Post Number: #218 Post
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another company made a hybrid urethane.
900 global shadow ops.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:22 am Post Number: #219 Post
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Well it's been fun, with this year coming to an end and so is this thread and no better ending to it than this year's PBA World Championship. Some interesting points of view have been stated and here are my current points of view:
-Urethane reads early and helps in controlling backend reaction yet with symmetric balls you have to keep your angles straighter, not so much with asymmetric balls such as the Hot Cell or Widow yet recovery is never as good as with reactives.
-Urethane works great for high speed, high rev players
-Urethane works good on flatter sport patterns when the outside is in play, especially in high volume short sport patterns.
-Urethane is not the best choice for most on a house shot where if you can roll reactive from the oil to the dry you will most likely have more margin of error.
-Nord loves urethane and for his unique style it seems to work for him
-Urethane is a must for a high rev two hander's arsenal
-There are other options to create the early smooth urethane reaction with reactive balls but knowledge of what ball, surface and layout to use is necessary.
-Urethane can make transition difficult for those not using urethane and sometimes even for those who are using urethane.
-Many times the adjustment for transition with urethane is further outside and faster, other times it's a little inside with your eyes
-People may complain urethane will ruin a pattern but can't legally make someone stop using it so the best strategy is to learn how to deal with the difficult conditions created.
-Team players should have caution not to ruin the pattern for fellow team mates.
-Hammer makes the best urethane balls (my opinion)

Hope you guys enjoyed, see you next year and happy new year!


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:33 am Post Number: #220 Post
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Quote:
Hitchhiker42
If you want to confirm it's all talent and not the ball, make every Pro use the same ball.
Just my opinion, I'm frequently wrong.

This time you are amazingly right!

Here is the rule I would like to see put in place:

1. Every bowler must use the same ball, generic, produced by the PBA and made of pure urethane.
2. That ball must only have a pancake weight block.
3. It must only be drilled with simple CG in palm drilling.
4. No flare, or performance enhancing drillings allowed.
5. The grit finish must be the same for all bowlers.
6. The normal thumbslug or inserts are allowed.
7. The pattern will be flat with low volume and short enough to allow urethane to read properly, but not so short that any advanges are given to higher or lower rev players.
8. Only two bowlers will be allowed on the championship pair in championship competition at a time.
9. After each pair decides the winner who will advance to the next championship round, the lane will be re-oiled to return it to as it was so each match will have no difference or advantage.
10. A player that is advancing to the next round will be allowed to de-oil/clean his urethane ball before the next match and return it to dry pre-match condition or, he can use a new identical fresh ball.
11. No warm up or practice shots are allowed on the Championship Pair. You can warm up on warm up lanes, but when championship play begins, the Championship Pair will be fresh.
12. Players must wear an outfit free of any extra promotion of products or advertisement. They can wear any crazy outfits they want, but they cannot promote products on their outfits as an addition to the outfit. No shirts that say Storm or Hammer. Storm or Hammer can make the shirts, but they cannot say Storm or Hammer on them, only on the hidden tag.
13. The final and most important rule: No coaching or ball reps allowed during Championship competition! It is up to the players to figure out what to do and when to do it. Any player caught being repped or coached will be disqualified. Since all players must use a PBA issued generic ball anyway, this should get rid of all those dumb reps hovering around all the players telling them how to use the balls that company issues to them.

Quote:
bowl1820
Matt Sanders, Hammer Purple
Kyle Troup, Storm Pitch Black
Jesper Svensson, Storm Pitch Black
Jason Belmonte, Storm Pitch Black
Ryan Ciminelli, Motiv Forza SS, Venom Shock

Urethane, Urethane, Urethane, Urethane, Resin

Yay, I am going to watch this now!
Looks amazing!
Boo for Ryan for using Resin.
Ironic in that urethane is what got him on the map.
But that kid also uses PEDs.
Darn shame he feels he needs to do all these things to win.
It's just not worth it.

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


Last edited by Nord on Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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