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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:24 pm Post Number: #181 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

You're not following directions then.
Symmetric, weak cover, weak layout, sanded.

NOT Strong cover, weak layout, sanded.
NOT Weak cover, strong layout, sanded.
NOT Weak cover, benchmark, sanded.

Symmetric, weak cover, weak layout, sanded.


or maybe because it doesn't act the same no matter how many times you say it. there is a reason you see the top pros throwing urethane and not weak covers with weak layouts with lots of surface and its not because everybody else is less educated than you.

i know mo has said things about this in the past but mo is in the business of selling bowling balls and he does not sell urethane as it is a niche market and 99% of the time the wrong bowling ball on a house shot. I also don't doubt that the brunswick family came out with the true motion to satisfy their pro staff because they didn't get the reaction with other bowling balls no matter how the drilled them

I have plenty of weak covers drilled weak, pearls and solids drilled low flare from most companies except motiv
I love experimenting and have money to burn and most of the balls who aren't in my tournament staple get redrilled a lot for experiments sake. I've also thrown countless of other ppl bowling balls (no thumb luxury) which have loads of different drillings and covers and surfaces as ppl in europe are not afraid of surface since we don't bowl as much as usa on house shots. None has ever reacted anything close to a urethane bowling ball in the front part of the lane.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:09 pm Post Number: #182 Post
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gunso wrote:
or maybe because it doesn't act the same no matter how many times you say it. there is a reason you see the top pros throwing urethane and not weak covers with weak layouts with lots of surface and its not because everybody else is less educated than you.

i know mo has said things about this in the past but mo is in the business of selling bowling balls and he does not sell urethane as it is a niche market and 99% of the time the wrong bowling ball on a house shot. I also don't doubt that the brunswick family came out with the true motion to satisfy their pro staff because they didn't get the reaction with other bowling balls no matter how the drilled them

I have plenty of weak covers drilled weak, pearls and solids drilled low flare from most companies except motiv
I love experimenting and have money to burn and most of the balls who aren't in my tournament staple get redrilled a lot for experiments sake. I've also thrown countless of other ppl bowling balls (no thumb luxury) which have loads of different drillings and covers and surfaces as ppl in europe are not afraid of surface since we don't bowl as much as usa on house shots. None has ever reacted anything close to a urethane bowling ball in the front part of the lane.


Nowhere in my statement did I say anything about house shots.
Do you think all of us in the USA bowl on house shots only?
Shannon O'Keefe had no problem winning a PWBA title with this type of set up.

Image




Cool your jets until you actually try it as prescribed. Your dismissal tells me you havent actually executed this layout design properly. The shape is very close.
It works, I used a ball with that set up when the bump to the right became too much, it smoothed it out like a urethane ball that hooked a few boards more.
Companies dont come out with balls to satisfy a small subset of bowlers in pro staff. This isnt the 90s tour editions. Companies make balls to appeal to the broad market, no matter how they're named. They're not remaking the factory line to make balls for pro staff then pushing the rest out to customers. Dream world.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:59 pm Post Number: #183 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
[
Your dismissal tells me you haven't actually executed this layout design properly.
The shape is very close.
It works, I used a ball with that set up when the bump to the right became too much, it smoothed it out like a urethane ball that hooked a few boards more.

I am going to give it a try on my Rack Attack.
I will finish the Rack the same as my Widow, 360/500.
Below is a pic of the current low flare layout on it.
It would be great to get it to work close to urethane as it could be an excellent ball down option from my Widow urethane once the Widow is hooking too early and strong.
Even if the Rack does not read as early a real urethane, if it still rolls up smooth and subtle and carry's, then it could fill the ball down gap for me rather than having to buy a Purple Hammer.

Attachment:
Rack Attack Low Flare Layout.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:53 am Post Number: #184 Post
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Nord wrote:
I am going to give it a try on my Rack Attack.
I will finish the Rack the same as my Widow, 360/500.


Thats the spirit! Please post another picture after you prep the surface.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:10 am Post Number: #185 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Shannon O'Keefe had no problem winning a PWBA title with this type of set up.

Image

True, but Shannon has a couple of natural advantages that allowed her to use a dull reactive up the outside line without fear it would jump off the back:
1. She throws a classic spinner ball, very high tilt, so the ball will tend to go very long naturally before it falls left and starts to roll. Shannon is not a heavy roller.
2. She throws real fast. She is real strong and really blasts that ball up the lane.
3. She looks great in a tight skirt.

You will note though, that misses to the inside would jump on Shannon, even with that dull ball.
A urethane would have held. Also, sometimes if she didn't hit that outside line correctly the ball would never grab, it would skid the whole way. She left a 7-10 with that under effect.
Both of these effects, over reacting on the inside and not hooking back from the outside are distinctly Resin ball effects.

Actually if you look at Shannon's ball go down the lane and then look at the oil track on it and at how fast she throws it, she actually reminds me a lot of how Lisa Wagner threw it.
Real fast classic spinner. Of course Lisa used urethane.

https://youtu.be/AFZHQDOcq-k?t=95

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:05 pm Post Number: #186 Post
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(I somehow misquoted Megamav so I deleted the quote here.)

So your argument is that since you could find a bowler who won with the smooth layout then you are correct and I am wrong? Because nobody has ever won throwing urethane?

Besides, the ball motion shannon has on that show is certainly smooth, it is still a far cry from the front to back ball motion a urethane bowling ball gives you.

It's not like I am berading the ball motion, it is certainly often condusive to scoring and I have often times used weak layouts on weak covers heavily sanded instead of urethane. I've used them for the exact reason that the urethane is reading too early and I need a better push through the front and a smooth motion at the backend while keeping the target in front of me.

(edited) Anyways, lets just agree to disagree so as to allow this thread to continue its purpose.

BTW 900 global just announced a hybrid asymmetrical urethane with an 80% urethane 20% reactive with a modified break core. Interesting indeed.


Last edited by gunso on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:28 pm Post Number: #187 Post
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Nord wrote:
3. She looks great in a tight skirt.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:32 pm Post Number: #188 Post
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gunso wrote:
...I have often times used weak layouts on weak covers heavily sanded instead of urethane. I've used them for the exact reason that the urethane is reading too early and I need a better push through the front and a smooth motion at the backend while keeping the target in front of me.

And this is what I am going to try on my Rack Attack.
I want to see if it can be a ball down option from my Widow.
When the widow is reading the whole lane strongly and forcing me left I would like to be able to ball down and keep my target in front of me with no fear that the ball will be jumping on me.
I will let you know how the experiment goes. I may do a video showing the motion.

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Last edited by Nord on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:59 pm Post Number: #189 Post
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Have you tried a Blue Hammer, the newer version not Faball?


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:49 pm Post Number: #190 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Have you tried a Blue Hammer, the newer version not Faball?

I had one years ago but gave it to a friend.
This was before I knew much about urethane or ball reactions.
I have recently considered a potential arsenal of urethane balls to use on house shots.

Strong: Widow
Medium: Purple Hammer
Weak: Blue Hammer

I would put the same layout on all of them and then adjust grits as needed until each is properly filling its place in the lineup.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:54 pm Post Number: #191 Post
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Nord wrote:
I had one years ago but gave it to a friend.
This was before I knew much about urethane or ball reactions.
I have recently considered a potential arsenal of urethane balls to use on house shots.

Strong: Widow
Medium: Purple Hammer
Weak: Blue Hammer

I would put the same layout on all of them and then adjust grits as needed until each is properly filling its place in the lineup.


What ever happened with that ball... The Judge, was it? Using that one at all these days? Kinda kicking myself for not getting one when I had the chance, if for nothing more than nostalgia.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:10 pm Post Number: #192 Post
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56bird wrote:
Whatever happened with that ball... The Judge, was it? Using that one at all these days? Kinda kicking myself for not getting one when I had the chance, if for nothing more than nostalgia.

Still have it.
I don't use it as much these days.
It is too weak to use on normal modern higher volume house shots like Kearny puts down.
The ball will get wet and then that is that, no more hook.
I have not tried it at Parkway yet but will give it a try to see if it can be a ball down option from the Widow, or if it will just get wet and become a spare ball.
The Judge generally works well at Poway since they put down very low volume.
But recently I have found my Brunswick Grizz to be a great ball for Poway.
The Grizz has a simple CG in palm drilling and has zero flare.
It provides great control of that very dry and twitchy Poway pattern and that ball hits very hard!
I don't know how it does it, but it hits hard.
I bowled a no-tap 300 with it last season and actually had 8 real strikes in a row with it.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:13 pm Post Number: #193 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Have you tried a Blue Hammer, the newer version not Faball?

Back in the day I used the original Blue and today I have the new Blue.

They are 2 completely different balls as far as the coverstock is concerned.
The old blue could not be sanded shiny. The new Blue will not stay dull. It only takes about 3 games to be completely lane shined to what I approximate to 4000 grit. I have given up on trying to keep it dull.

My PSO was talking about the Purple and asked me if I knew a way to shine it. Several of his customers wanted it shined because it was reading the lanes too early. This tells me the Purple is more like the old Blue than the new Blue is.

I am not looking for the Classic urethane ball reaction. I am looking for the reaction I got from the Brunswick Black Phantom, Asymmetrical Urethane. I am close to it with my Motion Holed new Blue Hammer 3" pin to PAP. I think If I had gone with a 3 1/2" to 4" pin to PAP I would be thinking I was rolling my old Phantom again.

Is there a way to achieve this with a reactive ball?

Yes I realize there is Asymmetrical urethane being offered today but it is alot of work trying to keep a urethane clean enough to maintain a strong reaction for 3 games. The reaction I had with the Phantom was not Classic urethane reaction. At the time it was my transition ball from the Red Hammer which read the lanes Very early. The Phantom was easily 10' longer and way more continuous than the Red Hammer.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:24 pm Post Number: #194 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
day I used the original Blue and today I have the new Blue.

They are 2 completely different balls as far as the coverstock is concerned.
.


Boy, that's the truth! The Org. didn't have filler either. It was just coverstock and core, that's why I like my org. Burgundy hammer.

The catch phrase "Nothing hits like Hammer" was well deserved on those balls.

Attachment:
blue burg hammer core.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:36 pm Post Number: #195 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Yes I realize there is Asymmetrical urethane being offered today but it is alot of work trying to keep a urethane clean enough to maintain a strong reaction for 3 games.

It is no longer any work with the Widow Urethane.
This ball loves oil!
The first time I used it was on a flood at Kearny which uses Brunswick Pro Anvilane.
So a real slick surface.
After a couple of throws the Widow was soaked to the bone and I was afraid it would be done.
Nope.
The Widow thrived in the oil.
Because there was so much oil I could play down and in with it.
On lower volume house shots I have to move left with it and keep it in the oil the whole way.
This ball is not for dry lanes!

Here is a pic from that session at Kearny showing the saturation of the ball.
Normally this much oil would kill a urethane ball reaction, not so for the Widow:

Attachment:
Oil_Soaked_Widow.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:29 pm Post Number: #196 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Thats the spirit! Please post another picture after you prep the surface.

Below are some photos of the Rack Attack with its new urethane style grit.
Here is how I prepped it.
Everything was done by hand using swirl sand technique.
1. 180 grit dry to get that shine off and put some swirl lines in it like I see in my Widow.
2. 320 wet Scotch-Brite
3. 600 wet Scotch-Brite
4. 500 wet Abralon
5. 500 wet Abralon once more the next day.
I will test it out on Sunday at Parkway bowl.
I will compare it to the Widow and my Dark Legend solid.
Then Wednesday I bowl there in a no tap tournament so I need to figure out which will do the job best or what place they all will play in an arsenal.


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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:38 am Post Number: #197 Post
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anybody ever knew there was a urethane quantum?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brunswick-Quantum-Urethane-Bowling-Ball-15-lbs-4-oz-Single-Drill-Maroon-Dark-Red/253327303330?hash=item3afb7be2a2:g:0eYAAOSwAHtaPu1J

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:16 am Post Number: #198 Post
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mrbean wrote:

Very interesting!
I never heard of a pure urethane Quantum.
I have heard of the Quantum Helix urethane/reactive hybrid.
Now that would be a cool ball to snag!

Here is a review of it.
This thing hits extremely hard.
https://youtu.be/dWkjog5jW0Q

And here is cool video explaining how the ball works and how to do the layouts for this unique ball.
Unfortunately this ball was only designed for Semi-Rollers, it would not work for Full Rollers like me:
https://youtu.be/R83lL2y6wYc?t=691

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:33 am Post Number: #199 Post
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Nord wrote:
it would not work for Full Rollers like me


I was a 3/4 roller when I had one many years ago, the double helix with the red strip.
I had a hard time getting it off the strip because my rev rate was low back then.
Probably 225. I am about 375 now.
Nice concept, a bit too niche and expensive to make.

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 Post subject: Re: The 2017 urethane ball thread
 Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:45 am Post Number: #200 Post
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Megamav,

I have read this whole thread and haven't seen anything about the asymm super low flare layouts that Mo showcased on the guru master I think last year (2016)?

Here is a video showing one on a storm lock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz9ZpvU259o

Here is one on a radical guru supreme on a house shot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPEayWqWOv0

Then on a short lower volume sport pattern:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvfTmxfCERA

I am starting to understand more of why Mo does not recommend a urethane ball if a bowler has the choice before buying a ball. People lack the ability to understand ball motion in general and in depth, then using urethane as a crutch because everything goes sideways in the backend on sport patterns specifically.

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