New ball not reacting like I want?

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Mallowpuff
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New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

Hello people! I'm new here so I am sorry if I'm doing this wrong.

I've been bowling for close to 6 yrs now but just in the last year started to really try to get my game up.

About a month ago I bought myself the new C300 Tyrant to replace my Track 716c.

Instead of getting the more aggressive hook I was kind of expecting, I've actually noticed myself moving further, sometimes much further, right then I used to. I used to stand as far right as the 22-25 board, now I'm closer to the 12-15. This is going over the second arrow.

The tyrant was drilled generic, no PAP was used. Could this throw it off this much?

I'd say I'm a lower speed lower rev player. I'd like to get them both up, but not yet. This is all on a THS.

My average is just above 150 which is lower than before I got my new ball. I'm all over the place with it. A league night usually consists of something like this. 130, 210, 111.

I'd just like some opinions. Thanks.

Here's a video of the ball motion, sorry for the bad quality. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And a picture of the layout. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by VLe »

Mallowpuff wrote:The tyrant was drilled generic, no PAP was used. Could this throw it off this much?

I'd say I'm a lower speed lower rev player. I'd like to get them both up, but not yet. This is all on a THS
Welcome to bowlingchat!

The tyrant is asymmetric, "Low RG/High Differential/High MB Differential that delivers an earlier roll with a massive move on the backend.". By watching your video and the layout picture I'm certain that the layout prevents the ball to deliver the "massive move" you seem to be looking for.

Combining low speed with low revs makes your speed-revs matched. ;)

You need to provide us more information about your delivery and the layout for better evaluation and even recommendation for more suitable layout. The wiki-instructions will give you all the required information for taking these measurements. I write this with mobile so maybe some other user could give you better guide for wiki.

From the video you seem to have high rotation and maybe high tilt also delaying the breakpoint. With longer pin-pap layout on asymmetric (based on the photo evaluation and assumptions from the delivery which needs to be verified!) your ball would be very forward rolling. The picture doesnt show the psa-mark on the ball which could give us some rough information about the layout. If these assumptions are correct, your ball is drilled in much different way than it is designed for so maybe you should think about plugging and redrilling the ball with some benchmark layout for example in this case. You should definitely check the details mentioned above.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by TonyPR »

130, 210, 111. No ball will help you if you can't repeat shots, I offer you free video analysis of your physical game on the Certified Coaching section, just follow the instructions for back and side view videos. The pro shop that drilled your ball was negligent if they didn't offer to get your PAP and axis tilt, that ball is on the expensive side. Is the pro shop located in a bowling center? If it is they should have taken at least 10 min to watch you bowl before blindly drilling such an expensive ball. Finally, I would suggest getting a plastic ball and working on your spares. Making your spares by itself will get you over 150.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

Thanks for the help guys. I'll look at all the stuff you guys talked about.

As for the scores, they were a little drastic. All I mean is I can't seem to get consistently good with this ball. I never got extremely high games with my last ball but I also rarely ever got below 150. This new ball just will not do what I thought it would do.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

VLe wrote:
Welcome to bowlingchat!

The tyrant is asymmetric, "Low RG/High Differential/High MB Differential that delivers an earlier roll with a massive move on the backend.". By watching your video and the layout picture I'm certain that the layout prevents the ball to deliver the "massive move" you seem to be looking for.

Combining low speed with low revs makes your speed-revs matched. ;)

You need to provide us more information about your delivery and the layout for better evaluation and even recommendation for more suitable layout. The wiki-instructions will give you all the required information for taking these measurements. I write this with mobile so maybe some other user could give you better guide for wiki.

From the video you seem to have high rotation and maybe high tilt also delaying the breakpoint. With longer pin-pap layout on asymmetric (based on the photo evaluation and assumptions from the delivery which needs to be verified!) your ball would be very forward rolling. The picture doesnt show the psa-mark on the ball which could give us some rough information about the layout. If these assumptions are correct, your ball is drilled in much different way than it is designed for so maybe you should think about plugging and redrilling the ball with some benchmark layout for example in this case. You should definitely check the details mentioned above.
Exactly. There's literally almost no break at the end. It looks like a solid roll from start to finish almost. Definitely no major move.

Now that I'm off mobile I can tell you what I know. And what I don't know. Which is most of it.

First off, is this white dot the "psa-mark"? " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's the only other mark on the ball that I can see.

As for my delivery, I'm not sure what you mean. Unfortunately, I won't be able to actually bowl practice until atleast Thursday. Thursday is when I have a lesson with the pro shop owner who I plan on asking about my PAP.

Sorry about my low knowledge on anything technical about bowling. Until a few months ago I didn't even think about any of this. I just rolled the ball and it went where it went. I had never even heard of "PAP".

Thanks for any more help, I really appreciate it.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by EricHartwell »

No need to apologize for coming to the right place to learn. The following link is for the information needed for layouts. This should raise some more questions for your lesson on Thursday.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imagebutton on the top right of the page has a wealth of knowledge for your learning pleasure.

The Tyrant while it is Asymmetric its Asymmetry is weak with just a .011 int differential.

How far apart are the flare lines of oil?

When I see a 3 game set with the 2nd game being high game I think did you move or did you fight the line in the first game and broke it in for the 2nd game and then did you stay right there and throw the 3rd game on that same line expecting it to continue to carry strikes?
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

EricHartwell wrote:No need to apologize for coming to the right place to learn. The following link is for the information needed for layouts. This should raise some more questions for your lesson on Thursday.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Imagebutton on the top right of the page has a wealth of knowledge for your learning pleasure.

The Tyrant while it is Asymmetric its Asymmetry is weak with just a .011 int differential.

How far apart are the flare lines of oil?

When I see a 3 game set with the 2nd game being high game I think did you move or did you fight the line in the first game and broke it in for the 2nd game and then did you stay right there and throw the 3rd game on that same line expecting it to continue to carry strikes?
Thanks for the links and info!

I measured about 3" at the widest point in the track after throwing a few. I believe that's how you do it?

Somedays it a high 1st game, somedays a high 2nd and somedays a high 3rd. Although I can say that a big reason for that is not moving. Just like you said, a lot of the time when I'm just bowling I stay in the same spot for all 3 games. Which is a habit I think I need to break.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by EricHartwell »

Lane play and how to move is a good topic for you to bring up at a lesson. Playing the correct part of the lanes at the correct time will definitely improve your game.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... House_Shot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Referencing the above article...
L1 is where you might start, adjusting to L2 and possibly finishing at L3. It is not uncommon to move as far as is illustrated. The basic move is 2 boards with your feet and 1 board with your target at the arrows. The trick is to identify when to move. The clues for this are at the end of the shot and seeing where the ball is leaving the pin deck on pocket shots and what pins you are leaving. When you leave 4, 9 or flat 10 pins its time to move.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by VLe »

Mallowpuff wrote:First off, is this white dot the "psa-mark"? " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's the only other mark on the ball that I can see.
Yes, that is the PSA-mark on the ball. It is called preferred spin axis and it basically means that when you throw the ball, it will end up rolling around that axis at the end. Or depending on the holes drilled to the ball, near that axis (holes change the asymmetry of the ball).

Based on the picture and depending your pap location it seems like you may have small drilling angle and long pin-to-pap distance combined with big VAL-angle. All of which further support the forward rolliness (is this even a word?). I could be wrong because its only speculation with generic PAP-assumption but you should definitely check the specs.

I absolutely hate the PSO's drilling this type of equipment without even seeing the person to throw the ball first. Its like throwing darts blindfolded. On which other profession you get to make such service directly to your customers in person and get away with it? The sad part is that most people in the center approves this because they dont have enough knowledge and they relay on their PSO. Its always a bad ball if it does not "do anything" or "enough", no matter how big pricetag did the ball have.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by TonyPR »

...and that is exactly why I learned to get my specs and speak dual angle, to take this responsibility in my own hands, if the shop won't do it I will... it's not too difficult anyway.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

Thanks for the help guys. I really appreciate it.

I'll try to bring up these points to the PSO. He's always been good, he'll always resurface and open up the thumb hole for free for me, and he's always helpful about my form and release. I've also seen balls that he's drilled with completely different looking layouts so it's not that he doesn't know how. He just never asked, he just quickly drilled it. On the other hand, I just said "I want that ball" after he recommended a few.

My sister got a game breaker 2 phenom that has a MUCH stronger back end motion. And even it doesn't have as much as I thought mine would.

My coach and even the PSO always say work on your form and release before worrying about the ball, but it's just not fun when the ball isn't even doing what my last one did after I spent almost $200 on it.

Thanks again.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by TonyPR »

Good! It is great that they offer to watch you bowl and see if they can fix your ball reaction as it could be caused by many things, could be your release, could be the lines you are playing... on the other hand many times a bad ball reaction can be fixed with changing the ball's surface or by drilling a balance hole.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

Alright, I'm back. I decided not to bring up the layout this last Wednesday because I had a tournament on Saturday/Sunday(Which I failed miserably at with a 95 average over 9 games) so instead we worked on a straighter swing and better release. He said, and I know, that I have the habit of "chicken winging" the ball and coming around it. I'm slowly getting out of it. I also worked a little bit on my approach.

At the old wooden lanes that the tourny was at, my ball had INSANE hook. Way too much for the lanes. Standing on 35+ it would roll over the 3rd arrow, break at the gutter and still hit brooklyn.

I'm having a pretty big problem right now though. I think I may have slightly messed up my hand. Maybe a tendon? Whenever I curl my ring finger or pinky I have a pain that goes through both and up my wrist. Making it very hard to bowl the last 3 games on Sunday.

I'm taking a week or 2 off of bowling and if it doesn't get better soon I'm headed to the doctor.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by bowl1820 »

Mallowpuff wrote: At the old wooden lanes that the tourny was at, my ball had INSANE hook. Way too much for the lanes. Standing on 35+ it would roll over the 3rd arrow, break at the gutter and still hit brooklyn.
You should work on lane play some.

With that extreme angle and throwing out to the gutter. You were getting out into the driest part of the lane fairly early.

You needed to keep the ball in the oil longer so it got down the lane.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Mallowpuff »

bowl1820 wrote:
You should work on lane play some.

With that extreme angle and throwing out to the gutter. You were getting out into the driest part of the lane fairly early.

You needed to keep the ball in the oil longer so it got down the lane.
Yep, I never really had the need too. I can say though that no matter where I stood, even with a coach trying to help me it would not pocket. I needed to keep my brace on to keep my fingers from hurting too bad so even when I thought I was playing through the oil it would start over too fast.

I think my biggest problem besides my fingers is the fact that in 5 years of bowling I've only bowled at 3 lanes with 99% of it being at one. I've always had to play up the lane to get it to the pocket so I wasn't prepared at all for what it did.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by VLe »

Mallowpuff wrote:I'm having a pretty big problem right now though. I think I may have slightly messed up my hand. Maybe a tendon? Whenever I curl my ring finger or pinky I have a pain that goes through both and up my wrist. Making it very hard to bowl the last 3 games on Sunday.

I'm taking a week or 2 off of bowling and if it doesn't get better soon I'm headed to the doctor.
You should also have your grip checked. Pain in the ring finger can be treated most of the time by changing the grip a little and learning of not-gripping the ball. Of course you need to first give time for your fingers to heal before you start to work with the grip. Depending on the situation you may need to have either a little more reverse on your rf, shorter span, bigger insert (preferably oval, not power lift if you are having problems) or if nothing else works you could try a sarge easter grip.

If the pain is in ring finger and pinky, you should definitely see a doctor. There are two major nerves in the hand. Other one goes for thumb, index finger and MF. The other is for RF and pinky. Having pain in this kind of finger-group usually means that the problem is relating to nerve issue. Having pain in the pinky also usually takes out the carpal tunnel syndrome. I have a problem where I feel numbness and tingling in my RF and pinky, usually at night when I woke up. These symptoms can also come all the way from neck, upper back, shoulder or elbow issues.

You should first do the span check that is mentioned in the morich fitting guide (=wikifit). Place your hand to the ball relaxed and leave the MF out of the hole. Is there pressure in the nail on your RF (nail is touching the backside of the insert/hole). There should be none.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by duvallite »

VLe wrote:You should first do the span check that is mentioned in the morich fitting guide (=wikifit). Place your hand to the ball relaxed and leave the MF out of the hole. Is there pressure in the nail on your RF (nail is touching the backside of the insert/hole). There should be none.
Very interesting comment (to me) regarding pressure on the RF nail, as I have this very same issue. If the ring finger nail is touching the backside of the insert when doing this test, what does that indicate and what would the correction be?
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by bowl1820 »

duvallite wrote:Very interesting comment (to me) regarding pressure on the RF nail, as I have this very same issue. If the ring finger nail is touching the backside of the insert when doing this test, what does that indicate and what would the correction be?
Excerpt from the fitting guide:
"Finally, to check the fit once the ball is drilled, place the bowler’s gripping fingers in the ball one at a time. Check to see if there is any pressure on the bowler’s finger nails.

Check the middle finger span by placing only the middle finger in the hole and then slide the thumb all the way into the thumb hole.

If there is no pressure on the middle finger nail, then the span is correct. If there is some pressure on the finger nail, the span should be shortened by 1/16”.

If there is excessive pressure on the finger nail, the span should be shortened by 1/8”.

Repeat this procedure to check the ring finger span. This test procedure will confirm your fit for the bowler."
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by Qman »

On league shots I'd stick with symmetrical cored balls with P2 layouts unless the league shot is a higher volume longer pattern.
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Re: New ball not reacting like I want?

Post by VLe »

One way to estimate the difference of the ring finger span relating to the middle finger span is the 5/16ths rule:

[5/16ths - (middle finger - ring finger difference at the joint)]

It means that if the difference is 1/4" for example, the ring finger span should be 5/16" - 4/16" = 1/16" longer than the middle finger span.

Edit: correction to the example
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