Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

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PlainUgly
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Joined: October 2nd, 2016, 8:03 am
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2
Speed: 18,3 off hand
Rev Rate: 340
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: RG No Rules
Medium Oil Ball: RG Devour
Light Oil Ball: Hammer BW Spare 2000 grit
Location: Hannover, Germany

Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by PlainUgly »

Hey guys,

one of my teammates is looking for a new ball. He asked me for help, finding something like inbetween a control / low flare THS layout.

His actual specs are:
Right Hand side
16,5 mph off hand
280 rpm
40-60* AR
12* Tilt

Coordinates are 6" over and 1 1/2 down, taken from middle of the bridge
Now, we looked at the radical nothumb layouts sheets and tried to understand how it works, but iam not sure, so please if anyone could give us an advice ?

1 ) The ball should have a high RG like Storm Timeless or the RG Devour to save energy / rev up later...

2) the layout would be 2 1/2 Pin to PAP and 4 1/2 Pin to GC ( in the Ringfinger ), according to his coordinates / the sheet for over and down layouts. This should be a low flare layout, what he is looking for.

Now, looking at his specs, he is a matched player, but he has less revs than typical twohanded players.
Im not sure if the ball, especially the Devour ( 0.34 diff ) will be to weak.

The Devour is on sale, so spending nearly the half of the money could give us more flexibility to perhaps get a second one with a stronger layout....

Thanks for help.
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by EricHartwell »

PlainUgly wrote:Hey guys,

one of my teammates is looking for a new ball. He asked me for help, finding something like inbetween a control / low flare THS layout.

His actual specs are:
Right Hand side
16,5 mph off hand
280 rpm
40-60* AR
12* Tilt

Coordinates are 6" over and 1 1/2 down, taken from middle of the bridge
Now, we looked at the radical nothumb layouts sheets and tried to understand how it works, but iam not sure, so please if anyone could give us an advice ?

1 ) The ball should have a high RG like Storm Timeless or the RG Devour to save energy / rev up later...

2) the layout would be 2 1/2 Pin to PAP and 4 1/2 Pin to GC ( in the Ringfinger ), according to his coordinates / the sheet for over and down layouts. This should be a low flare layout, what he is looking for.

Now, looking at his specs, he is a matched player, but he has less revs than typical twohanded players.
Im not sure if the ball, especially the Devour ( 0.34 diff ) will be to weak.

The Devour is on sale, so spending nearly the half of the money could give us more flexibility to perhaps get a second one with a stronger layout....

Thanks for help.
I will be honest and say I don't exactly know what is going on with the Radical no thumb layouts either.
I would analyse this from a dual angle perspective and utilize a balance hole to define the drilling angle and maintain static weight.

Asym Benchmark, 95 Total 175:1 Ratio .... 60-4-35
Sym Benchmark............. 65-4-30 P4
Sym Control ................. 65-4-50 P4
The Symmetrical drilling angle is NOT to the Cg, they are for balance hole placement. The cg location will have to be planned based on its distance from the pin and top weight. The layouts too are optimum and may need to be modified to accommodate the Cg distance.

If a low flare result is what this bowler wants the Devour would be just fine to use but I would not be using a 2.5" pin to PAP on it. A 4" pin to PAP will produce a flare separation of approx. 3/16"
So to get a ball with a 3-3.5" pin to PAP is much easier to get than one with 4.5"
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
TonyPR
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Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by TonyPR »

Being a coach and a two handed no thumb bowler myself I am curious about the low rev rate. If you would like you can post a video of your team mate in the coaching section.
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gunso
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Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by gunso »

EricHartwell wrote:
I will be honest and say I don't exactly know what is going on with the Radical no thumb layouts either.
I would analyse this from a dual angle perspective and utilize a balance hole to define the drilling angle and maintain static weight.
I wholly agree with the confusion about the thumbless drillings according to Radical. They seem to contradict a lot of what MO has said in the past.

First of all they do not state any difference between pin to pap distances in assymmetric and symmetric bowling balls though I strongly believe that they are only meant for symmetric bowling balls.

Second they seem to disregard the effect of the VAL angle on the length of the hook zone.

Third they seem to believe that it doesn't matter what drilling angle thumbless bowlers end up with and it is better left up to chance, which is weird since thumbless bowlers should have a much better oppurtunity to get the right drill angle in symmetric bowling balls then those who use their thumb.
PlainUgly
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Posts: 47
Joined: October 2nd, 2016, 8:03 am
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2
Speed: 18,3 off hand
Rev Rate: 340
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: RG No Rules
Medium Oil Ball: RG Devour
Light Oil Ball: Hammer BW Spare 2000 grit
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by PlainUgly »

EricHartwell wrote: I will be honest and say I don't exactly know what is going on with the Radical no thumb layouts either.
I would analyse this from a dual angle perspective and utilize a balance hole to define the drilling angle and maintain static weight.

Asym Benchmark, 95 Total 175:1 Ratio .... 60-4-35
Sym Benchmark............. 65-4-30 P4
Sym Control ................. 65-4-50 P4
The Symmetrical drilling angle is NOT to the Cg, they are for balance hole placement. The cg location will have to be planned based on its distance from the pin and top weight. The layouts too are optimum and may need to be modified to accommodate the Cg distance.
At first, thank you guys for this quick and helpful responses !

First i blindly just followed the radical sheet on wiki, cause its always had been a really helpful source to me. Now, after you proclaimed your own confusions about this sheet, i asked myself if i still want to understand why there is a difference to a classic dual angle layout ?

Sadly i didnt reached this level of knowledge today, but i recognized the differences like:
- only working with Pin to PAP distances, while CG is fixed in the RF
- drilling finger holes to depth of 3,5" to stabilize rg axis
- avoid balance holes cause the psa shouldnt move

...but i dont know why ...... i guess, that i has to do with the lot more speed and revs twohanders usually have ?!

Concerning my teammate i now realized why make it more difficult as it has to be, so luckily he has speed and revs, that can be layouted by dual angle. Only thing is there is no thumb hole and i still dont know what to modify and why ? Does the P4 is chosen because of its position which equals the weight removal of the fingerholes ? or because aiming for increased dynamic of ball motion ?

One question at Erics layout examples is why the asym benchmark layout has 5° less on DA and 5° more on VA in comparison to sym layout ?


If you would like you can post a video of your team mate in the coaching section.
Thanks Tony for offering, but his approach/style will make u get bad dreams. :) .... no slide, no laydown...airtime until the arrows..... He knows but he is not capable to make major changes. The funny thing is, he is quite accurate so we dont care. :lol:
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by EricHartwell »

PlainUgly wrote:One question at Erics layout examples is why the asym benchmark layout has 5° less on DA and 5° more on VA in comparison to sym layout ?
Asymmetrical balls retain tilt longer than Symmetricals thus the larger drilling angle on the Sym to achieve the same skid length as the Asym.

Asyms have a sharper breakpoint so to get a Sym to hook like the Asym equivalent it needs to have a smaller VAL angle to make the hook shape more angular.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
PlainUgly
BCU Graduate Layouts
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Posts: 47
Joined: October 2nd, 2016, 8:03 am
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/2
Speed: 18,3 off hand
Rev Rate: 340
Axis Tilt: 7-10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: RG No Rules
Medium Oil Ball: RG Devour
Light Oil Ball: Hammer BW Spare 2000 grit
Location: Hannover, Germany

Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by PlainUgly »

ahh, ok thanks Eric !

Whats about the P4 you mentioned ?

Does the P4 is chosen because of its position which equals the weight removal of the fingerholes ? or because aiming for increased dynamic of ball motion ?

No thumbhole does change static weights which results in what ?
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout question for nothumb / twohanded player

Post by EricHartwell »

PlainUgly wrote:ahh, ok thanks Eric !

Whats about the P4 you mentioned ?

Does the P4 is chosen because of its position which equals the weight removal of the fingerholes ? or because aiming for increased dynamic of ball motion ?

No thumbhole does change static weights which results in what ?
P4 takes the place of a thumb hole and it sets the drilling angle.

It has to balance out the Cg because you are only allowed 1 oz of weight below the midline of the 2 finger grip. The Cg will need to be placed below the fingers to allow the P4 balance hole.

I hope you have a knowledgeable driller to be able to set this drilling up and make it statically legal.

The radical no thumb layouts are simplified to make drilling for the no thumber a no brainer when it comes to maintaining the static weights.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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