Layout request

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RobMautner
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Layout request

Post by RobMautner »

As you know by now, I have long been a proponent of using one or two layouts exclusively and letting the differences in the balls dictate the reaction. That being said, from time to time I re-evaluate my own standard layout(s), and I thought I ask you for some input. Unfortunately, there is nowhere in Vegas to get all of the specs measured (unbelievable in the bowling capitol of the world), but I can give you a good idea from my own observations. I have a very high track, making pin down layouts a non-viable option as I invariably hit the thumb hole with them. I have very low axis tilt, and low rotation, but I am rev/speed balanced with a ball speed between 15.5 and 16 mph and a rev rate around 300. My biggest issue is getting the ball down the lane as my forward roll wants to read early. Suggestions for a new standard layout?
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Re: Layout request

Post by TonyPR »

Hello Rob, always been a fan of your articles. First I have a few questions:
-What lane conditions do you intend to play with the ball: pattern(name, length, volume), synthetic or wood, fresh or transition(number of games, number of players)?
-What line do you want to play with this ball and what shape are you looking for (arcing, hockey stick, etc)?
-Was the speed measured off the hand or is it monitor speed?
-Please measure your track diameter so we can determine your axis tilt.
-Would you say your axis rotation is around 20*, 30*, 45*, more? Less?
-Finally, what ball company or which balls were you interested in drilling?
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Re: Layout request

Post by bowl1820 »

This might help getting those stat's:


Measuring axis tilt
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... =Axis_tilt


How to find a bowler's PAP, ball speed, rev rate, axis rotation and axis tilt
[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Layout request

Post by JohnP »

I have a very high track, making pin down layouts a non-viable option as I invariably hit the thumb hole with them.
Are you sure you're hitting the thumb hole, or could it be the finger holes? Typically for a high tracker a low pin lowers the bow tie below the finger holes and the track flares over the finger holes and away from the thumb hole. -- JohnP
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Re: Layout request

Post by spmcgivern »

bowl1820 wrote:This might help getting those stat's:


Measuring axis tilt
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... =Axis_tilt


How to find a bowler's PAP, ball speed, rev rate, axis rotation and axis tilt
[youtube][/youtube]
Maybe it is just me, but this video doesn't represent the most accurate way of determining some of the desired measurements.

I would assume the best way to determine these values is to simply direct the bowler to the wiki.
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Re: Layout request

Post by MegaMav »

Flawed video. Its not even worth me quoting it.
The overlay is definitely way off considering the camera isnt set up behind the shot line.
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Re: Layout request

Post by RobMautner »

JohnP: Yes, I'm sure it's the thumb hole.
TonyPR: I bowl routinely at 4 different centers on a house shot. Two are leagues; four games each, one a trios league, the other a doubles league. I also bowl a lot of pot games with four on a pair, six games across six pairs of lane. All of the centers are synthetics. I also bowl on sport shot tournaments, and an occasional PBA event (Senior US Open this year if I can stay healthy). I can play anywhere from the gutter into about seventeen comfortably). I'm looking for whatever shape will help me the most with my bowling style. My speed estimate is based on experience, watching different bowlers with different styles. Track length is 26 1/2". PAP is 4 3/4 over by 1/2 up. No clue how much axis rotation, but definitely not much. I'm not married to any company, but currently I'm using more Storm than anything else. Please understand that, since I only use one or two layouts, I routinely keep anywhere from 8 to 16 balls in my arsenal and choose what to bring, as well as surface prep, on where I'm going to bowl, and on what kind of pattern, as well as the time of year and the weather outside.
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Re: Layout request

Post by TonyPR »

To measure axis tilt you can do this: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway 26 1/2" divided by two is 13.25" which is about 1* to 2* degrees of axis tilt, with such a low tilt and low axis rotation your layouts are going to be about retaining axis tilt so that the ball doesn't roll out.

You can eyeball axis rotation by rolling a ball with contrasting color keeping in mind that straight end over end is 0*, side rotation from side to side is 90* and somewhere in between is 45*.

I am sure you can find a bowling center with speed sensors at the end of the lane. To whatever number the monitor displays you should add 2.5 mph, this will be your speed off the hand.

We need this data to get good layouts.

I would go with 2 balls for house, one for fresh and one for transition, 2 balls for long sport oil, 2 for medium sport oil and 2 for short sport oil. These can overlap so it doesn't have to be a total of 8 balls it could be less.

For house we could use a control layout for fresh to control the over under and then something that recovers well to play deeper when the oil transitions and your first ball starts to read to early, maybe a long and strong layout. These same balls could probably be used in a medium sport shot.
For short oil you could use a pearl/urethane to play the twig. For long sport you could use a layout that reacts fast to friction to play straight from the middle on fresh and maybe something strong if you want to move in a bit. Finally I would add a dry lane ball for the burn. We are looking at around maybe 5 layouts but we would be thinking more about making specific balls for specific shapes and conditions. Give us your monitor speed and we can start recommending. I will consult Eric Hartwell who has much more experience than me in this so I can make sure the recommended layouts and balls are as accurate as can be.
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Re: Layout request

Post by EricHartwell »

RobMautner wrote:As you know by now, I have long been a proponent of using one or two layouts exclusively and letting the differences in the balls dictate the reaction. That being said, from time to time I re-evaluate my own standard layout(s), and I thought I ask you for some input. Unfortunately, there is nowhere in Vegas to get all of the specs measured (unbelievable in the bowling capitol of the world), but I can give you a good idea from my own observations. I have a very high track, making pin down layouts a non-viable option as I invariably hit the thumb hole with them. I have very low axis tilt, and low rotation, but I am rev/speed balanced with a ball speed between 15.5 and 16 mph and a rev rate around 300. My biggest issue is getting the ball down the lane as my forward roll wants to read early. Suggestions for a new standard layout?
Low tilt low rotation balanced speed to revs.....
My first thoughts are low flare layouts. These can effectively lengthen the phases of ball motion.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... tguide.xls" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Track length 26.5" equates to 11* of tilt
From your PAP measurement 4 3/4 over by 1/2 up your initial track is not what I would consider high track. I would say med track.
For a high track and 11* of tilt your PAP should be more like 6" over.

What are your standard 2 layouts at this time?
It might be better to adjust from them rather than use specs that are not accurate.
This is one of the benefits of the dual angle system. Being able to adjust layouts based on existing.
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Re: Layout request

Post by RobMautner »

Eric: Thank you for respecting my standard layout system as different rather than just wrong. There is no way that I'm going to have six different layouts. Right now, using the system that I do, I am at about 80% in terms of making a mid-game ball change and striking on the first shot (my record is 16 in a row which I attribute to understanding the difference between balls).

Anyway, to answer your question, my "standard" layout is 45 X 4 3/4 X 25. When I purchase a more aggressive symmetrical, I will increase the pin to PAP distance to 5 1/4. When I purchase an aggressive asymmetrical, I will increase the drilling angle to 60 that places the MB in or very near the thumb hole. I used this most recently on the Storm Code Black, and it's working out very well as one of my most frequently used balls. I agree with you on the low flaring layouts to help me to get as much length as I can, and I try to stay away from weight holes as much as I can for that reason. When I do need one to keep the ball legal, I have the hole drilled on the PAP for as little effect as possible.

I do what I need to in terms of surface to tailor my ball reaction. Recently I purchased a Roto Grip No Rules Pearl. I used the aggressive asymmetrical layout. At the OOB finish (1500 + polish) it was too squirty down lane, so I added some surface (3000 abralon lightly by hand). This was an improvement, but I was getting too much mid-lane read (Roto is known for this), so I took the ball down to 3000, finished it off with 4000, and added Powerhouse Factory Finish Polish. So far, I'm liking the reaction.

I'm telling you all this to let you all know that just because I don't subscribe to using different layouts does not mean that I am blind to ball reactions; I just use a different philosophy that usually works pretty well for me. I decided to ask for some input for the simple reason that I wanted to see if there is some glaring mismatch in my standard layout in terms of my bowling style. Hopefully you can tell me if you see one so I can assimilate the input without regretting having asked for it. LOL
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Re: Layout request

Post by TonyPR »

They are not called "weight holes" anymore, they are called balance holes and can account for around 60% of the layouts' contribution to ball reaction. A motion hole in a symmetrical ball can definitively make it go longer and snap hard. If you really want to simplify why not just go with Mo's "most versatile layout" and then tune the balls with balance holes and surface:

download/file.php?id=5008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4 3/4 and 5 1/4 pin to paps on asymmetricals are high flaring.

Also, if you want to get your ball down the lane 45 is a low drilling angle.
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Re: Layout request

Post by bfweld »

The longer pin-pap distances on asymmetrical balls uses rotation too quickly, causing the ball to roll forward sooner and reading the lane too quickly...in turn causing the ball to transition too soon so you are seeing problems with getting the ball far enough down the lane.

With your low rotation you need pin-pap lengths that retain axis rotation and tilt which is closer to 3" and under on asymmetrical balls...4-5 on symmetrical balls.

For your symmetrical ball layout you probably will want to increase your drilling angle for more length.
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Re: Layout request

Post by MegaMav »

bfweld wrote:The longer pin-pap distances on asymmetrical balls uses rotation too quickly, causing the ball to roll forward sooner and reading the lane too quickly...in turn causing the ball to transition too soon so you are seeing problems with getting the ball far enough down the lane.

With your low rotation you need pin-pap lengths that retain axis rotation and tilt which is closer to 3" and under on asymmetrical balls...4-5 on symmetrical balls.

For your symmetrical ball layout you probably will want to increase your drilling angle for more length.
You're onto something... you get kudos.
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Re: Layout request

Post by spmcgivern »

bfweld wrote:The longer pin-pap distances on asymmetrical balls uses rotation too quickly, causing the ball to roll forward sooner and reading the lane too quickly...in turn causing the ball to transition too soon so you are seeing problems with getting the ball far enough down the lane.

With your low rotation you need pin-pap lengths that retain axis rotation and tilt which is closer to 3" and under on asymmetrical balls...4-5 on symmetrical balls.

For your symmetrical ball layout you probably will want to increase your drilling angle for more length.
Drilling angle on symmetricals are based on thumbhole location and is a function of the VAL. As the VAL increases, so too does the drilling angle.

I would suggest using a VAL angle that corresponds to the length of the pattern. As the pattern gets longer, the VAL should decrease. This may provide a quicker response. If a bowler is bowling on shorter patterns, then a larger VAL may be able to lengthen the hook zone and not overreact when exiting the pattern.

This is kinda the reason the typical "pin-over" is so often used successfully on THS. Most THS are in the 40 foot range and a pin-over drilling provides a similar VAL for most bowlers.
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Re: Layout request

Post by EricHartwell »

Lots of good points being made so far.
RobMautner wrote:I have a very high track, making pin down layouts a non-viable option as I invariably hit the thumb hole with them.
I keep going back to this. It is not a normal result.
Before drilling up anything new I would find my PAP on a non-flaring ball.
Before anybody corrects me on this I have my reasons. The first being my thoughts on low flaring layouts and secondly it is easier to see if you got it correct. If a piece of tape wobbles you know it is not correct.
Rob, if your PAP is as I suspect, a pin down layout based on your stated PAP with a 5"+ pin to PAP, with the fact the fingers push the low Rg axis away I'm thinking your ball is flaring the wrong way.
Thus the rolling over the thumb hole.

Comments on your layouts.....45 X 4 3/4 X 25 and 65-4 3/4-25 1.8:1 and 2.6:1 Ratios respectively.
The 2.6:1 Ratio is a good Benchmark Ratio for low tilt low rotation. The 1.8:1 Ratio and reduced total would be a Midlane Layout, just as you have described. BUT... your totals are too low so everything is early for you. Also to reiterate, the long Pin to Pap would be better suited for a high tilt bowler.
I realize you don't want 6 different layouts but I just can't help myself when I start designing an arsenal. You don't have to use all 6, just know that they are available.

For more of a Benchmark reaction....
Asymmetrical 75-3.25-30 2.5:1 Ratio
Symmetrical 80-4.5-25

Asym low flare 90-2.25-30 3:1 Ratio
Symmetrical low flare is basically what you already use on them

For sport conditions I would lower the Ratio to 1:1 and a Stronger Pin to PAP, Asymmetrical equip.
Long................. 40-4.5-40
Medium............. 50-4.5-50
Short ............... 60-4.5-60 (adjust to Pin in the ring finger)
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Re: Layout request

Post by TonyPR »

I really don't understand Rob's aversion to more than 2 layouts, I guess one can take a camel to the oasis but one cannot make the camel drink... Good luck Rob, and keep writing those articles, I really enjoy reading them.
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Re: Layout request

Post by gunso »

I think the two layout system really has its merits but it should probably be the four layout system to account for two symmetrical and two assymmetrical. Might sprinkle a trick layout on specific balls for special cases but most often the difference between balls will do the trick.

When encountering numerous patterns of varying difficulties each year simplicity is often the best way to go with something you always know works.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to what is the best for each bowlers. If simplicity is what is best for someone then that is the best way for said bowler.
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Re: Layout request

Post by RobMautner »

Thank you all for your input so far. As I've really been working on increasing my tilt and rotation by modifying my release, I came on the same thought that Eric had which is it was probably a good idea to recheck my PAP. Boy, what a surprise! I used the Fanatic BTU to check it as it is a very low flaring ball, but has a dark enough cover to see the oil and mark it up. I guess I've been successful in raising my tilt and rotation as my new PAP is 4 1/2 over by 1 7/16 up!

Based on your suggestions, I decided to start with the most versatile layout, 70 X 4.5 X 40 and see how it goes. Using the new PAP, I just laid out two new symmetrical balls; Storm Timeless and Storm Torrent, which I will have drilled tomorrow.

One of the main things that I've taken away from this conversation is the benefit of a shorter pin to PAP distance for me on assymetricals. I will definitely try this out the next time I purchase an aggressive asymmetrical ball.

I'll let you know how things go in the next few days.
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Re: Layout request

Post by TonyPR »

PAP does not say much about axis tilt or rotation, it has to do more with how you release the ball and where your track is in relation to the holes. You can have a low track and low axis tilt(Mike Fagan) and vise versa.
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Re: Layout request

Post by JohnP »

TonyPR wrote:PAP does not say much about axis tilt or rotation, it has to do more with how you release the ball and where your track is in relation to the holes. You can have a low track and low axis tilt(Mike Fagan) and vise versa.
PAP location doesn't have anything to do with where your track is in relation to the holes either. Any PAP location can have many track locations (concentric circles), each of which will have a different axis tilt and track diameter. So we're left with the fact that how you release the ball determines your PAP location. -- JohnP
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