laying out an a new arsenal?

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militant02
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laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by militant02 » January 31st, 2010, 2:36 am

how would you go about laying out a new four ball arsenal? do you normally use the smallest dual angle drilling that works for you for your oilier then increase the drill angle for each ball for drier lane conditions? what are some suggestions that you can give me in addition to some of the balls that i'm considering. i prefer balls that have a strong arc over skid flip also.

medium heavy / heavy oil: storm invasion, ebonite mission

medium: morich mania, storm virtual energy, track 715c

medium/ medium dry: morich frenzy, track 505c

dry: morich mojave for sure!

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » January 31st, 2010, 2:24 pm

militant02 wrote:how would you go about laying out a new four ball arsenal? do you normally use the smallest dual angle drilling that works for you for your oilier then increase the drill angle for each ball for drier lane conditions? what are some suggestions that you can give me in addition to some of the balls that i'm considering. i prefer balls that have a strong arc over skid flip also.

medium heavy / heavy oil: storm invasion, ebonite mission, morich mania

medium: morich craze, storm virtual energy, track 715c

medium/ medium dry: morich frenzy, track 505c

dry: morich mojave for sure!
Since a lot of my balls are on your list, I'll take a shot at this. First of all, I moved the mania to the heavy oil category. In tests so far, the mania hooks as much, if not more than, any ball on the market. I, also, added the Craze to the medium category. By the way, thanks for putting MoRich balls on the list.

Let's go over the thought process.

1) Determine your "sweet spot" (the best sum of angles to match your game).
2) Your sweet spot is + 20* to give you an arsenal.
3) Learn the motion characteristics (ball motion shape) of the balls considered.
4) Decide on the balls.
5) Choose the layouts based on the motion of the balls chosen.
6) Drill the balls of choice and choose the surface for each.
7) Throw the balls and decide on the balance hole locations, if desired. Then, drill the balance holes.
8) Check out the arsenal and increase the size of the balance holes in the balls that need it to fine tune the reaction.
9) Enjoy bowling with the arsenal.

HOW'S THAT?
Last edited by Mo Pinel on February 1st, 2010, 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by elgavachon » January 31st, 2010, 3:05 pm

if you drill a double thumb and do o.k. with it,( I shot super good on a brickyard shot, but that might have been texture of a Morich Response at 1000) does that count as your sweet spot? in my case that would be about an 85 degree total. I really like the110 degree mojave on dry. would that be the coverstock or the 110 degrees? almost all my high games were with 138 degrees (rico). or do you find the sweet spot on paper? low tilt 10 degrees ,17 -18 on Qubic
minimum rotation

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » January 31st, 2010, 3:18 pm

elgavachon wrote:if you drill a double thumb and do o.k. with it,( I shot super good on a brickyard shot, but that might have been texture of a Morich Response at 1000) does that count as your sweet spot? in my case that would be about an 85 degree total. I really like the110 degree mojave on dry. would that be the coverstock or the 110 degrees? almost all my high games were with 138 degrees (rico). or do you find the sweet spot on paper? low tilt 10 degrees ,17 -18 on Qubic
minimum rotation
Can you give me an initial rev rate estimate? Are you sightly speed dominant or strongly speed dominant? That's the ball speed to rev rate ratio. 17-18 on Qubica makes you about 20 mph at release.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by elgavachon » February 1st, 2010, 4:18 pm

I'm slightly speed dominant.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 1st, 2010, 8:34 pm

Mo Pinel wrote: Can you give me an initial rev rate estimate? Are you sightly speed dominant or strongly speed dominant? That's the ball speed to rev rate ratio. 17-18 on Qubica makes you about 20 mph at release.

What is your axis rotation?
The final piece of the puzzle.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by elgavachon » February 2nd, 2010, 12:22 am

AROUND 10 DEGREES TILT. THE ROTATION VARYS FROM NONE TO 45 DEGREES

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 2nd, 2010, 12:11 pm

elgavachon wrote:AROUND 10 DEGREES TILT. THE ROTATION VARYS FROM NONE TO 45 DEGREES
Thanks for the info. My initial observations include very little rotation and tilt, and slightly speed dominant.

"Double Thumb" drillings are definitely a good choice.

Your "sweet spot" analysis looks like this. Slightly speed dominant starts you at 85* sum of angles. + 15* for very little axis rotation and tilt. The result is 100* + 20* to create an arsenal. Asymmetrics are preferred. Use big balance holes in P3 and P4 position. Not much polished equipment.

Your basic layout is 75* / 3 1/4" / 25* with a P3 hole. Always use a much larger drilling angle than angle to the VAL (2:1 to 3:1 ratio).

I hope following this analysis helps everyone interested.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by kellytehuna » February 2nd, 2010, 2:41 pm

How do you come to the 3:1 - 2:1 ratio? Is that just to ensure you get enough length out of the first transition and the second transition doesn't take, like, half the lane to complete? Just curious.
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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 2nd, 2010, 2:54 pm

kellytehuna wrote:How do you come to the 3:1 - 2:1 ratio? Is that just to ensure you get enough length out of the first transition and the second transition doesn't take, like, half the lane to complete? Just curious.
The higher ratio is because of his lack of axis rotation and tilt (less rotation and tilt). The more the bowler is up the back, the higher the ratio. The more the bowler gets around the ball (more rotation and tilt), the lower the ratio. Range of ratios is between .7:1 and 3:1.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by kellytehuna » February 2nd, 2010, 3:06 pm

OH! I see! I thought you meant 3:1 - 2:1 as a general rule of thumb. Ok, so I was partially correct in my assumption that you were wanting to delay the first transition. :) Its the little things ;)
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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by militant02 » February 3rd, 2010, 12:10 pm

what would the ratio be if elgvachon's rev rate matched his speed and also if he was slightly rev dominate?

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by rmack » February 3rd, 2010, 2:06 pm

militant02 wrote:what would the ratio be if elgvachon's rev rate matched his speed and also if he was slightly rev dominate?
Just my 2 cents,

If that were the case, I would move the total sum of the angles up. 95* is a good base for a "matched" speed to rev rate, 105* to start for slightly rev dominant. From those numbers we would add the modifiers for rotation and tilt (plus 15* for elgavachon per Mo).

If he were slightly rev dominant, I would also think about weaker core designs for balls that were destined for drier conditions.
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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 3rd, 2010, 2:20 pm

king of the mill wrote: Just my 2 cents,

If that were the case, I would move the total sum of the angles up. 95* is a good base for a "matched" speed to rev rate, 105* to start for slightly rev dominant. From those numbers we would add the modifiers for rotation and tilt (plus 15* for elgavachon per Mo).

If he were slightly rev dominant, I would also think about weaker core designs for balls that were destined for drier conditions.
Ron,

I believe the ratio militant02 is talking about is the ratio of drilling angle to VAL angle that I referred to in my post. That is based on rotation and tilt. Give them your estimate as my work day is full, please.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by rmack » February 3rd, 2010, 8:34 pm

Mo Pinel wrote: Ron,

I believe the ratio militant02 is talking about is the ratio of drilling angle to VAL angle that I referred to in my post. That is based on rotation and tilt. Give them your estimate as my work day is full, please.
I would be glad to try to help, Mo. Please critique this when you have a moment, as I am still learning.

Militant02,

I would not change the ratios that Mo recommended as they are based on elgvachon's unique rotation and tilt.

Changing his profile by adding rev rate or reducing ball speed would cause me to change the sum of the angles accordingly so that he could maintain control of the balls reaction.

If he "matched" I would use 80* by 3 1/4" by 30* for a base layout.
If slightly rev dominant, I would use 85* by 3 1/4" by 35* for a base layout.
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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by militant02 » February 4th, 2010, 5:09 am

yes, i was referring to the ratio of drill angle to val. what would my optimal ratio be if my specs are as follows:

speed: 17-18 mph off of my hand
rotation: 30*-60* depending on my release
axis tilt: 3*
rev rate: approximately 325 rpm's
my pap is now 5 1/8 over 5/8 up

here is some additional info that might help
i have two pearl one's that are drilled pretty similar. the first is drilled 45*x 4 1/2 x40* p2, the other is drilled 60* x 4 1/2 x 40* p2. the one with the 45* drill angle rolls fine but seems to lay off at times where the one with the 60* has a much stronger reaction at the breakpoint and has no problem turning the corner with enough to kick out the ten pin. is this because a 60* drill angle puts the weight block in a more unstable position or does a 45* drill angle roll earlier and use more of its energy before it gets to the breakpoint?
Last edited by militant02 on February 4th, 2010, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Positive Axis Point: 5.OOO by .25 up
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Heavy Oil Ball: guru
Medium Oil Ball: mighty
Light Oil Ball: uncaged
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: Livonia, MI

Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by rmack » February 4th, 2010, 5:56 am

militant02 wrote:yes, i was referring to the ratio of drill angle to val. what would my optimal ratio be if my specs are as follows:

speed: 17-18 mph off of my hand
rotation: 30*-60* depending on my release
axis tilt: 3*
rev rate: approximately 325 rpm's
my pap is now 5 1/8 over 5/8 up

here is some additional info that might help
i have two pearl one's that are drilled pretty similar. the first is drilled 45*x 4 1/2 x40* p2, the other is drilled 60* x 4 1/2 x 40* p2. the one wit the 45* drill angle rolls fine but seems to lay off at times where the one with the 60* has a much stronger reaction at the breakpoint and has no problem turning the corner with enough to kick out the ten pin. is this because a 60* drill angle puts the weight block in a more unstable position or does a 45* drill angle roll earlier and use more of its energy before it gets to the breakpoint?
Your tilt is very low, with low to moderate axis rotation. Your ball speed matches your rev rate.

You are seeing better reaction out of the 60* drill angle because it takes more time (axis migration) to reach its first transistion. Your guess that the 45* is burning up is most likely true, it should liven up on a slicker pattern, but will still be touchy to transitions of the conditioner.

I would like to see you with angle ratios more toward 2:1 or more (3:1 max) compared to the 3:2 or almost 1:1 you are currently using.
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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 4th, 2010, 7:34 am

king of the mill wrote: Your tilt is very low, with low to moderate axis rotation. Your ball speed matches your rev rate.

You are seeing better reaction out of the 60* drill angle because it takes more time (axis migration) to reach its first transistion. Your guess that the 45* is burning up is most likely true, it should liven up on a slicker pattern, but will still be touchy to transitions of the conditioner.

I would like to see you with angle ratios more toward 2:1 or more (3:1 max) compared to the 3:2 or almost 1:1 you are currently using.
WELL DONE, RON! I concur. 3:1 on shorter, drier patterns and 2:1 on longer, oilier patterns.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by militant02 » February 4th, 2010, 4:16 pm

is there a minimum drill angle and val angle that i shouldn't go lower than? if a total of 100* produces a nice reaction for me on medium patterns would a 60*/30* work best on longer patterns and 60*/20* on shorter patterns? i've noticed an earlier, smoother transition in the midlane since mo had me change my pitches to increase the grip pressure of my middle finger.

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Re: laying out an a new arsenal?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 4th, 2010, 10:39 pm

militant02 wrote:is there a minimum drill angle and val angle that i shouldn't go lower than? if a total of 100* produces a nice reaction for me on medium patterns would a 60*/30* work best on longer patterns and 60*/20* on shorter patterns? i've noticed an earlier, smoother transition in the midlane since mo had me change my pitches to increase the grip pressure of my middle finger.

Please read "the Effective Use of Dual Angle Layouts" on the MoRich website.
It addresses ALL the minis and maxis. We'll discuss the "sweet spot", which is not on the website after you assimilate that.

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