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 Post subject: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to friction
 Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:59 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I have seen in a few posts that the double thumb drilling is being describes as providing "continuous hook" when it used to be described as providing the quickest response to friction. This quick response to friction meant the ball being angular but possibly rolling forward very quickly depending on how strong the cover was.

This "massive continuous hook" was referring to using it on a Radical Guru. I believe that this is a very strong cover.

Why is the double thumb now "continuous" when before it was the quickest response to friction?

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Last edited by J_w73 on Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:07 am Post Number: #2 Post
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"Lowest possible spin time and highest differential ratio layout for a symmetric"

It will burn off tilt and rotation fastest.

That should clear things up.

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:59 am Post Number: #3 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
"Lowest possible spin time and highest differential ratio layout for a symmetric"

It will burn off tilt and rotation fastest.

That should clear things up.


That is my point. That doesn't sound like a very continuous ball motion. That is what I discovered about the double thumb layout when I tried it out when it was first introduced. I wanted something angular with a big back end and found it was very angular but the ball wanted to roll forward very quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:17 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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To straighten out what seems to be confusion, double thumb layouts maximize both the differentials of a drilled ball. By scientific definition, strong ball motion is ball motion that turns translational energy into rotational energy the soonest. For lay people, that means the ball will hook "early and often". There's nothing in there that says there's any delay in the breakpoint. Depending on the axis rotation and axis tilt of the bowler, it will be perceived as either early roll or complete continuation. Some people think strong ball motion means flip on the backend. If you use the scientific definition of strong ball motion, that's NOT it.


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:05 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
To straighten out what seems to be confusion, double thumb layouts maximize both the differentials of a drilled ball. By scientific definition, strong ball motion is ball motion that turns translational energy into rotational energy the soonest. For lay people, that means the ball will hook "early and often". There's nothing in there that says there's any delay in the breakpoint. Depending on the axis rotation and axis tilt of the bowler, it will be perceived as either early roll or complete continuation. Some people think strong ball motion means flip on the backend. If you use the scientific definition of strong ball motion, that's NOT it.


The problem is: how does one "sell" this truth to the masses when all hey want is flip hook on the back end. Players who study the game "get it" while the pedestrians do not. One bowler at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:12 am Post Number: #6 Post
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guruU2 wrote:

The problem is: how does one "sell" this truth to the masses when all hey want is flip hook on the back end. Players who study the game "get it" while the pedestrians do not. One bowler at a time.


We can provide "flip hook" in the ball design anytime we, at Radical, want with our core technology. The double thumb technique is the way to turn that ball into a massive hooking monster.


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:28 am Post Number: #7 Post
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For a speed dominant bowler on tighter lane conditions, this will translate into big back end. As opposed to the ball never reaching the roll phase.

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:36 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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russelldean wrote:
For a speed dominant bowler on tighter lane conditions, this will translate into big back end. As opposed to the ball never reaching the roll phase.


As a speed dominant/high rotation lefty, I agree with this. The double thumb layout turned a Frantic I owned into an absolute beast of a ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:41 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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So how does the MOtion hole compare to the double thumb layout as far as ball reaction to friction and motion on the lanes?

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:27 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
So how does the MOtion hole compare to the double thumb layout as far as ball reaction to friction and motion on the lanes?


DT is early and often while the MOtion Hole is late and hard. MOtion Hole delays the breakpoint and increases the severity of it. A must for ALL high track, slower speed bowlers. Like many of those who were born before the advent of color television. Opposite motions!


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:10 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:

DT is early and often while the MOtion Hole is late and hard. MOtion Hole delays the breakpoint and increases the severity of it. A must for ALL high track, slower speed bowlers. Like many of those who were born before the advent of color television. Opposite motions!


As an independent bowler who has no affiliation with Mo or Radical, I have to agree with this totally. Like I said earlier in this thread, the Frantic was an absolute hook monster with the double thumb layout. I have never had a symmetrical ball hook that much. It was often used as a benchmark on higher volume shots or as step down from stronger asymmetric equipment.

I currently have a motion-holed Rocket and that ball goes really LONG and POPs on the back end. It's currently used as my high friction house shot killer.

Despite the Rocket and Frantic having the same R2S hybrid cover and somewhat similar cores specs (2.54 rg/.046 diff in the Rocket and 2.53 rg/.045 in the Frantic), using these 2 different layouts, I have seen/witnessed two completely different ball motions.


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:17 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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LookingForALeftyWall wrote:

As an independent bowler who has no affiliation with Mo or Radical, I have to agree with this totally. Like I said earlier in this thread, the Frantic was an absolute hook monster with the double thumb layout. I have never had a symmetrical ball hook that much. It was often used as a benchmark on higher volume shots or as step down from stronger asymmetric equipment.

I currently have a motion-holed Rocket and that ball goes really LONG and POPs on the back end. It's currently used as my high friction house shot killer.

Despite the Rocket and Frantic having the same R2S hybrid cover and somewhat similar cores specs (2.54 rg/.046 diff in the Rocket and 2.53 rg/.045 in the Frantic), using these 2 different layouts, I have seen/witnessed two completely different ball motions.


To me, those core specs are virtually identical. Much less than one standard deviation. But remember, Core Shape Determines Motion!


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:52 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
......But remember, Core Shape Determines Motion!


Can you elaborate a bit on this? I'd like to know, generally speaking of course, what core shapes are typically better for certain ball motions, such as skid flip, arc, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:37 am Post Number: #14 Post
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This may help: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:5_Yeti_Layouts.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:58 am Post Number: #15 Post
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MegaMav wrote:


This I think this goes along with that.

Core_Shape_Determines_Motion
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:Core_Shape_Determines_Motion.pdf


might add in this too:
Core Properties
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/a/af/Core_properties.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:31 am Post Number: #16 Post
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maybe core/cover combinations with specific determined layout (lets say DT or a control layout u pick any layout to standardize measurements) should not be marketed as the most hooking but in terms of ball hitting and continuation power.

or do the masses just want to hear it has the most hook?

I DTd a Whack 40 x 4 x 30 and its one hell of a ball. I thought it was goin to be another medium ball. i did knock off the polish tho using 3000 Abralon. woke up the carry a lot but thinking of tryin it at 2000.

Did you take a Strike King cover and put it on this ball? it acts similar cover-wise.

I did drill my Guru master 55 x 4 x 40 and it ended up with max fingerweight. I havent put a weight hole in it yet because I did not know what to expect. not sure how much more weight I can take out of those fingers if I P4 it. ok, so is this cover stronger or tamed up from original Guru?

Anyway, what I discovered about the GuruM so far is a managable ball clean thru the heads that plays the same as my Whack. but whats noticible is the pin speed and hitting power. ive had more messengers and off hit strikes with the Guru Master in a week than ive had all year. coincidence?

so thats my point about hitting power vs how much hook. I can hook a white dot 40 boards from 1 board to the left gutter if I throw it slow enough. what good is a 40 board hook? cant hook it more than 40....

I know there are so many variables, but you can more accurately state reaction to a given static amount of friction or how much continuation and pin speed gets generated imho.

RR

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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:15 am Post Number: #17 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
maybe core/cover combinations with specific determined layout (lets say DT or a control layout u pick any layout to standardize measurements) should not be marketed as the most hooking but in terms of ball hitting and continuation power.

or do the masses just want to hear it has the most hook?

I DTd a Whack 40 x 4 x 30 and its one hell of a ball. I thought it was goin to be another medium ball. i did knock off the polish tho using 3000 Abralon. woke up the carry a lot but thinking of tryin it at 2000.

Did you take a Strike King cover and put it on this ball? it acts similar cover-wise.

I did drill my Guru master 55 x 4 x 40 and it ended up with max fingerweight. I havent put a weight hole in it yet because I did not know what to expect. not sure how much more weight I can take out of those fingers if I P4 it. ok, so is this cover stronger or tamed up from original Guru?

Anyway, what I discovered about the GuruM so far is a managable ball clean thru the heads that plays the same as my Whack. but whats noticible is the pin speed and hitting power. ive had more messengers and off hit strikes with the Guru Master in a week than ive had all year. coincidence?

so thats my point about hitting power vs how much hook. I can hook a white dot 40 boards from 1 board to the left gutter if I throw it slow enough. what good is a 40 board hook? cant hook it more than 40....

I know there are so many variables, but you can more accurately state reaction to a given static amount of friction or how much continuation and pin speed gets generated imho.

RR


Just drill both the fingers an extra inch deep in the Guru Master to eliminate the static weight concerns. Then we'll discuss using a balance hole. The ball + layout + the balance hole + the surface = a complete system of adjusting reactions.


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 Post subject: Re: Double thumb - continous hook vs quick response to frict
 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:04 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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oh I agree this is the ball for my game. im just making observations using the ball for the 1st time on familiar conditions before tweaking it.

with the layout im using its a hit monster.

once I dial it in the consistency of the shape of each shot is amazing. to the point where the strike carry looks identical.

nice work on this one, Mo.

RR

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