Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Nord »

MegaMav wrote:With tilt from 3/4 roll you'll carry better at the pins and have a more controlled motion coming off the oil into the dry.
Easier to increase rev rate and power with 3/4 roller too.
How does tilt make a difference?
What does tilt do?

If a ball has a semi-roller 45 degree axis rotation with zero tilt how does it react compared to it having some tilt? How does it help or hurt?
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by MegaMav »

Nord wrote:
How does tilt make a difference?
What does tilt do?

If a ball has a semi-roller 45 degree axis rotation with zero tilt how does it react compared to it having some tilt? How does it help or hurt?
Tilt allows rotation to burn off more smoothly, meaning the hook phase is longer, more controllable.
Tilt also improves carry.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Nord »

MegaMav wrote:Tilt allows rotation to burn off more smoothly, meaning the hook phase is longer, more controllable.
Tilt also improves carry.
So tilt means the ball is leaning to the side, like the earth is tilted 23 degrees?
So as the ball rolls down the lane how does the axis tilt process and change direction in a way that improves carry?
Does the ball eventually lose its tilt when it starts rolling or does it retain its tilt even in the roll phase?
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by MegaMav »

Nord wrote:
So tilt means the ball is leaning to the side, like the earth is tilted 23 degrees?
So as the ball rolls down the lane how does the axis tilt process and change direction in a way that improves carry?
Does the ball eventually lose its tilt when it starts rolling or does it retain its tilt even in the roll phase?
Yes. The PAP is tipped up in relation to parallel to the lane (0 tilt).
A small amount of tilt is retained in the roll phase if you have tilt.
If you dont have tilt at initial release, you wont have tilt at the pin deck.
Full rollers have no tilt, carry usually is less than optimal.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by SomyP »

I can speak from personal experience about tilt. When I first started bowling I was a spinner and had high tilt at 25 degrees. My PAP was 3 and 7/8th by 3/16th up. Now after working for years my tilt has gone down to 11-13 degrees. PAP is now 4 and 15/16 by 1/16 down. While I did well and was able to string strikes with high degree of tilt I left a lot more ten pins or splits than the average bowler.

This was due to my ball not burning enough tilt off and going into a roll fast enough. Drilling solved some of my issue but it wasn't until I worked on staying behind the ball and decreasing my tilt that I finally saw better carry. Now I can lay out a ball any way I want for any condition and all I have to do is change balls when needed. Personally I like physical adjustments such as speed, rotation, etc. before having to change balls.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Nord »

SomyP wrote:I can speak from personal experience about tilt. When I first started bowling I was a spinner and had high tilt at 25 degrees. My PAP was 3 and 7/8th by 3/16th up. Now after working for years my tilt has gone down to 11-13 degrees. PAP is now 4 and 15/16 by 1/16 down. While I did well and was able to string strikes with high degree of tilt I left a lot more ten pins or splits than the average bowler.

This was due to my ball not burning enough tilt off and going into a roll fast enough. Drilling solved some of my issue but it wasn't until I worked on staying behind the ball and decreasing my tilt that I finally saw better carry. Now I can lay out a ball any way I want for any condition and all I have to do is change balls when needed. Personally I like physical adjustments such as speed, rotation, etc. before having to change balls.
So in your case less/lower tilt was a better thing. It assured the ball would roll stronger.
In my case I have zero tilt, but increasing tilt will make my ball hit harder?
But I assume higher tilt is only possible for me if I convert from Full Roller to Semi-Roller.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by JohnP »

But I assume higher tilt is only possible for me if I convert from Full Roller to Semi-Roller.


That's right, axis tilt depends on the diameter (across the surface of the ball) of the initial track ring. A ring that tracks the full circumference of the ball has 0 tilt. As the initial track ring gets smaller the tilt increases. -- JohnP
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by SomyP »

To increase tilt try to get your thumb out of your ball quicker and keep your hand behind the ball. From my knowledge most full rollers keep their hand in a suitcase position and their fingers leave at the same time. That is essentially the difference between a full roller and a spinner. A spinner will have the fingers rotate and spin from the top where as a full roller will roll the ball from a suitcase position.

A good drill to practice is a backup ball. What this does is it forces your hand to rotate in the opposite direction, but will force you to learn how to feel what it's like to work the inside of the ball. Now you don't have to do it until you can average near your average with it. Do it until you're comfortable enough where you can keep it on the lane and possibly strike with it. After that practice rolling the ball end over end as straight as possible. Low ball is good to practice this drill. Try to knock over just the 10 and 7 pins with this release. Now after these drills your hand will build muscle memory. It won't happen right away but you will essentially learn what it's like to work the inside of the ball.

I advocate this drill since one of my idols Norm Duke actually came up with the drill and it's on his DVD. The other reason is if you have the time, you don't have to use a metal wrist brace like I did since I only had 10-11 weeks to learn. It fast tracked my progress and now I can adjust tilt at will, but I feel like 3-4 weeks of that drill should be enough if not add another week or more practice sessions throughout the week.

The important thing, I don't know if it's been addressed is your fit. Go to a good certified pro shop operator and have him/her check your fit. Sometimes the smallest fix such as correcting pitch in the fingers or thumb hole can make the biggest difference in your release. I used reverse pitch in my thumb until about 2009. Went 0 degrees forward. Now I'm a 16th forward. It's not major but it's lessened my grip and I come cleaner out of the ball.

Sorry for the long post. I love bowling and helping others and feel like any knowledge as long as it's good can help.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by EricHartwell »

I find it easier to raise my tilt by setting the ball down earlier releasing it into the lane vs. up on the lane. Less loft. My tilt goes Way down when I loft the ball.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by TonyPR »

yep, I agree with you Eric, if I loft my tilt is extremely low, granted I bowl no thumb/2 handed.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Qman »

Doesn't it depend on what you are looking for? If you are looking for length keep it polished and pin up, if you want it to roll early keep it dull and pin down. Am I wrong? I usually am.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by SomyP »

Qman you are not wrong in your assessment. Pin up and polished will give a ball length but might create more backend snap depending on lane condition and bowler's stats. While a pin down and dull ball will roll earlier would generally be smoother on the back it again comes down to a bowler's stats.

Take a finesse bowler for example. Someone who throws the ball 15 mph with 250 rpms with 45 degrees of rotation and 8 degrees of rotation would probably favor the polished pin up ball on a THS because it will retain the energy they put into the ball longer. The pin down dull ball would burn up early and not have enough to carry the 10 pin.

A power player who throws the ball at 18 mph with 450 rps 55 degrees of rotation and 12 degrees of tilt would favor the pin down dull ball to try and control the backend. The pin up polished ball may not snap enough/skid too long.

The reason I chose those two examples are from personal experience. My dad is the finesse bowler who for the most part loves pin up drillings regardless of ball since he needs to retain energy as much as possible. I'm the power player who regardless of ball can get away with any drilling.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by EricHartwell »

Dull surface vs Shiny surface. With the same ball/layout, the dull rolls first.

Pin down vs pin up same surface same ball Pin up rolls first.

Pin down Dull vs pin up Shiny, same ball, How early is the friction? How heavy is the oil?
I still say Pin up rolls first.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12349&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think the easiest way to explain is to use a Symmetrical ball example. PAP 5" over
It is about the drilling angle. No balance hole.
Measuring the drilling angle to the thumb hole.

Pin up.......70-4-30
Pin down ..90-4-70

On a Symmetrical ball with no balance hole. Same surface.

The Pin up has a shorter skid zone and hook zone. It rolls first.

Add a Huge balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL to the Pin down and you might be able to get the drilling angle down to about 50* still not enough to make it roll earlier.

This all assuming you are rolling it on the same line, same release.

Pin up on a light oil shiny ball vs Pin down on a heavy oil dull ball. The pin down rolls sooner.

Pin to PAP distances also affect the length to roll.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Nord »

SomyP wrote:Pin up and polished will give a ball length but might create more backend snap depending on lane condition and bowler's stats. While a pin down and dull ball will roll earlier would generally be smoother on the back it again comes down to a bowler's stats...Take a finesse bowler for example. Someone who throws the ball 15 mph with 250 rpms with 45 degrees of rotation and 8 degrees of rotation
I have even slower ball speed and less revs than your finesse player example. So what kind of bowler am I? What is more subtle than a finesse player? Lol.

But I have an example of the same ball at two different grits having a different reaction.
Below are two videos.
One is my Karma Urethane at 500 grit wet hand sanded.
You will see the ball reads the lane so early that it only rotates twice before it starts hooking.
But it never gets into a roll and just hooks the whole length of the lane and hooks through the pins.
I would assume it just died out and could never roll?
Hard to know what it was doing, it just didn't work.

I then took the ball to 2000 grit wet sand and now the ball responds beautifully.

It is not pin up polished vs. pin down dull, but it is high grit vs. low grit on the same ball and same lanes.

500 grit
[youtube][/youtube]

2000 grit
[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by EricHartwell »

It looks to me the the 500 grit achieved roll.
Also, not the best comparison. Same house but different lanes on different days.
The state of the breakdown is kind of unknown between the 2.

For sure the 2000 grit is giving you more defined ball motion.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by SomyP »

I don't know what is more subtle than a finesse player lol. You are a full roller for sure. At release you release it like a typical full roller. The best thing to work on is if you want any tilt and better reaction instead of full roller layouts and surface adjustments is to work on getting your hand behind the ball. Start with a straight wrist and fingers at 6. You want your thumb to point at two. At release you will rotate your hand slightly finishing around 4-5 and your thumb rotating to noon. Pretty standard release.

A full roller in today's game is not bad. Shannon Pluhowsky and Tom Smallwood are full rollers on the men's and women's tours respectively and their success speaks for themselves. However you will see throughout the years that a 3/4 roll has been the most successful roll. I don't know too much about full roller layouts other than it is sometimes known as reverse drilled layout sometimes. There could be other ways to layout a ball to get the desired reaction and of course adjusting surface to suit the conditons always helps as well.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Qman »

Just bought a Ridiculous Pearl and tried it on a burnt house shot. Pin up no extra hole left alot of 10 pins. 5 shots in row until I moved in further then was able to kick the 10 pin out. Quick response to friction.
Adapt or perish!

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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by Nord »

Hey guys,

I am back in two weeks at Poway bowl. So in preparation to bowling there I bought Hammer's new Asymmetric Polyester ball:
"The Widow Spare." It is a polyester cover with the ridiculously strong and early rolling asymmetric Gas Mask core.
I hand wet swirl sanded the ball to 2000 Siaair.
The drilling lay out was designed for this specific ball by Ron Machniak of Precision Bowling.

http://www.precisionbowlingproshop.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The layout is the most aggressive, high flaring, Full Roller layout with balance hole for asymmetric cores. I am getting 5 inches of flare on this ball with my low rev style. Pretty amazing for a low rev bowler using a conventional grip. But of course Ron is a genius.

Just to show you how strong and early the core is on this ball, below are the undrilled specs:

RG: 2.48
Diff: .058

After Ron’s layout the drilled ball still has an RG of 2.48 but the diff has been raised above .060. It is a flare monster!

I am bowling on fresh oil on the Poway lanes which have good built in lane friction.
I chose this ball especially for these lanes. As you can see in the video this ball has a nice easy slide phase and then gets into a very strong forward Full Roller roll with a gradual and controlled move to the pocket.
This ball allows me to slow my ball speed down and just ease the ball up the second arrow and come through the ball more so it gets into an earlier roll. With the polyester cover I have no fear the ball will overreact.
If I hit my target line correctly the ball would strike again and again. I was very, very impressed with this ball. I guess it is true: “Nothing hits like a hammer!”

Here is the video best watched on youtube in full 1080p:

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by gunso »

It would be more interesting if you didn't edit out the non strikes as it would be interesting to see how the polyester reacta to misses in and out.
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Re: Polished vs. Dull on the Fresh?

Post by spmcgivern »

I must say Nord, I really like your game. I am not sure if you are still considering going to 3/4, but if it were me, I would stay full roller.

Either way, keep up the good work and I wish you the best of luck!!
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