High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular layout

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flagator07
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High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular layout

Post by flagator07 » October 15th, 2019, 6:49 pm

I was wondering if anyone knew why you might use a low flare layout on a ball with a high differential core when you could instead select a lower priced medium differential ball like an IQ Tour or a ball from Motiv's Venom line and use a standard layout.

I'm guessing the reason is most high differential balls come with strong covers so even with low flare layouts they are still somewhat stronger than medium/low differential balls, but I was wondering if there are any other reasons I am not aware of.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by 44boyd » October 15th, 2019, 7:19 pm

Because you need to play the lanes front to back and not side to side. The low flare is to keep the pocket in front of you where the med diff still could create too much backend.
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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by flagator07 » October 16th, 2019, 6:49 pm

I'm not sure I follow you. For example, if I start with a Conspiracy Theory that undrilled has a total differential of 0.054 and use Mo's suggested low flare layout, the total differential of the ball will fall to 0.034. Motiv's Venom Recoil comes with an undrilled differential of 0.036. If I use my benchmark layout in this ball, the differential doesn't change much. Excluding the differences in coverstock, why should these balls react differently front to back?

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by 44boyd » October 16th, 2019, 7:01 pm

More flare equals side to side movement, the stronger core and cover on the low flare will allow straighter play for you to battle the over under.
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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by flagator07 » October 16th, 2019, 7:09 pm

I apologize, I'm still not getting it. It sounds like you are saying the Venom Recoil in my example will flare more than the low flare layout in the Conspiracy Theory. My question is if both balls have the same differential after they are drilled, why will they flare (and roll) differently?

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by 44boyd » October 16th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Yes they will roll differently because of cores and covers. The Recoil is a dry to medium lane ball so it will be naturally long and more angular. That will cause issues if you have a flood in the middle and dry outside, it will have issues recovering when you miss in and go high if you get to the dry to quick.
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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by deanchamp » October 19th, 2019, 3:22 am

44boyd wrote:More flare equals side to side movement
More flare will shorten the hook zone. Less flare will have a longer hook zone and cover more boards.

Surface and rotation play a big part in this as well.
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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by flagator07 » October 19th, 2019, 3:32 am

I appreciate the responses I have received so far but I think they are missing the main point of my question. I am not asking how flare affects ball motion, I am asking why (or if) reducing the flare on a high differential ball causes the ball to flare differently than a ball that comes with a medium/low differential core, if once the balls are drilled, they end up having the same differentials.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by elgavachon » October 19th, 2019, 6:54 am

flagator07 wrote:I appreciate the responses I have received so far but I think they are missing the main point of my question. I am not asking how flare affects ball motion, I am asking why (or if) reducing the flare on a high differential ball causes the ball to flare differently than a ball that comes with a medium/low differential core, if once the balls are drilled, they end up having the same differentials.
Or If is the key question here (my interpretation of the question anyway) . Same flare does not equal Same ball motion. The PAP of your drilled ball has an RG. When you release the ball and as the ball flares, the PAP will precess along the other axis's of the ball which share that same RG (same RG contour). The shape of the core (also determined by the orientation of the core) might not be the same with the 2 comparisons you are asking about. That is why you hear everyone saying that core shape determines the ball motion. Matching differentials will not necessarily equate to same ball motion.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by flagator07 » October 19th, 2019, 1:55 pm

Thank you, your reply gets to the heart of my question. Conceptually I didn't think the balls would roll the same, but I was at a loss as to understand why.

As a test, I used Blueprint software to compare the original Hammer Arson with the Hammer Arson Low Flare and put layouts on them that made their differentials roughly the same. This allowed me to compare balls with the same cover (I assume) but with different core strengths to see what would happen. I set both balls at 2000 grit to give them the same surface.

(A) Undrilled Arson - RG:2.48, Diff:0.045
(B) Undrilled Arson Low Flare - RG:2.50, Diff:0.022

Layouts Used:
(A) 90 x 1 x 45 (P1)
(B) 50 x 3 3/8 x 10 (P4)

Core numbers after drilling:
(A) RG:2.50, Diff:0.038, Int Diff:0.008
(B) RG:2.52, Diff:0.037, Int Diff:0.018

As you can see, the drilled core numbers aren't exactly the same, but are fairly close.

What I found is what you said - the RG contours were very different in the two balls. In Ball A, the contour looked like a small "C". In Ball B, the contour was more of a gradual, upward sloping line. Ball A hooked and rolled sooner than Ball B and crossed slightly more boards (11.97 vs. 11.16). This despite actually flaring less (1" vs. 3"). The shape of Ball A's motion was a bit rounder and smoother.

So in this one example, using balls with the same cover, putting a low flare layout on a ball with a high differential core resulted in a slightly stronger overall reaction (earlier transition and more boards crossed) than putting a high flare layout on a ball with a low differential core even though their after drilling core specs were the same. The primary difference between the balls was the shape of the ball motion which is what you said. Thanks for your help!

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by krava » October 21st, 2019, 7:20 am

I am lost on this as well. If I had a strong ball such as a hammer ripped or something and put a low flare layout on it, I would use it in a situation where I am already using a strong ball, but it is sort of over reacting in the backend and either too sharp of backend or it is covering too many boards. I would use the strong ball with a lower flare on it as a ball down from the ball with the normal layout so I can have more control in the backend. I don't own a ball with a low flare strong cover ball layout. I have a medium oil ball with a low flare layout.

This stuff gets complicated. let me back this up. If I am on fresh lanes and I pull out a strong ball with a normal layout (either strong or control), and the ball rolls good on it (not burn up too soon because not enough oil) but it jumps on me in the backend, then it is time to throw the ball with the low flare layout but with a strong cover. (there is the option of taking some hand out as well or adding speed).

if you are already bowling, Then the strong ball starts to over hook a little bit, then I would first move left and if that isn't good then ball down. If you ball down and the ball doesn't quite make it to the pocket in the same spot, then I would use the strong cover low flare layout ball then as long as the ball rolls good and doesn't burn up.

That is all theory to me as I haven't ever done this before, but that should be the way it should work I believe.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by elgavachon » October 21st, 2019, 4:35 pm

krava wrote:I am lost on this as well. If I had a strong ball such as a hammer ripped or something and put a low flare layout on it, I would use it in a situation where I am already using a strong ball, but it is sort of over reacting in the backend and either too sharp of backend or it is covering too many boards. I would use the strong ball with a lower flare on it as a ball down from the ball with the normal layout so I can have more control in the backend. I don't own a ball with a low flare strong cover ball layout. I have a medium oil ball with a low flare layout.

This stuff gets complicated. let me back this up. If I am on fresh lanes and I pull out a strong ball with a normal layout (either strong or control), and the ball rolls good on it (not burn up too soon because not enough oil) but it jumps on me in the backend, then it is time to throw the ball with the low flare layout but with a strong cover. (there is the option of taking some hand out as well or adding speed).

if you are already bowling, Then the strong ball starts to over hook a little bit, then I would first move left and if that isn't good then ball down. If you ball down and the ball doesn't quite make it to the pocket in the same spot, then I would use the strong cover low flare layout ball then as long as the ball rolls good and doesn't burn up.

That is all theory to me as I haven't ever done this before, but that should be the way it should work I believe.
deanchamp summed this up very nicely above. "More flare will shorten the hook zone. Less flare will have a longer hook zone and cover more boards.
Surface and rotation play a big part in this as well."
Pay special attention to where he said surface and rotation play a big part (a bowlers specs will vary the comparison). A very simple example visualizing a forward rolling ball (not much rotation): Think of the weight block as a pop bottle with the cap being the pin. If you use a low flare long pin layout on a symmetrical ball, the bottle (core) will be end over end down the lane like a kicked football. If you use a low flare layout (short pin) on a symmetrical ball, the cap will be laying towards the PAP and the bottle (core) will be rolling like a rolling pin (used to flatten bread dough). Then add an asymmetrical imagery to the visual (the pop bottle has a puck or handle attached). Now you have to factor in that the puck is an end over end motion while the core is rolling if the cap is on the PAP and the shape of the core will change the imagery. Then add a high rotation bowler using the same imagery. I think that how low flare fits into your game will take some experimentation and not be the same for everyone.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by deanchamp » October 23rd, 2019, 10:37 am

flagator07 wrote: Core numbers after drilling:
(A) RG:2.50, Diff:0.038, Int Diff:0.008
(B) RG:2.52, Diff:0.037, Int Diff:0.018

As you can see, the drilled core numbers aren't exactly the same, but are fairly close.
The RG and Diffs are close, but one ball is now an asymm core (B) and the other is essentially a symm core (A). This will have an impact on how they flare and the shapes they create.

My 2 cents, I like using big asymm core balls with the MB in the thumb on THS, especially as I move in (towards 4th arrow), as I can get around it and have the big core create a heavy roll that a symm ball can't match (for my rev rate anyway). It's a weaker layout in terms of having a larger drill angle, but as elgavachon pointed out, you will also have to consider the asymmetry of the core beyond just RG and Diff when making number comparisons.
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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by flagator07 » October 23rd, 2019, 8:34 pm

deanchamp wrote:The RG and Diffs are close, but one ball is now an asymm core (B) and the other is essentially a symm core (A). This will have an impact on how they flare and the shapes they create.
The thing is the ball with the higher int. diff (Ball B) after drilling started out with a weaker core before drilling. That's why I am finding the strong core/weak layout vs. weak core/strong layout so confusing. If I didn't have access to Blueprint software, I'm not sure I would have expected that result.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular la

Post by krava » October 28th, 2019, 7:15 am

Went back with my cousin and bowled today, (first time in 4-5 weeks). it was a run down houseshot and we got 2 lanes. I only took 3 balls. Spare, rocketship and storm match pearl.

rocketship is .046 diff drilled for control
storm match pearl is .030 diff drilled for low flare

Storm match pearl has close to factory finish while the storm match pearl has about 30-50 games on it probably, and never surfaced since out of the box. That ball is my drills ball basically. But since I know I was going to deal with a burnt house shot, I wanted a ball that would go further down the lane.

I first stood on 27 throwing (rocketship) across 10 out to like 7-8 and didn't get to the pocket and the ball never got into the roll phase and burned up.

Next move was stand on 23 and thrown down 8 out to maybe 5-6 and in. (storm match pearl)

Long story short The good shot was standing on 22 throwing across 7 out to around 3 and then back in. That thing came back from the gutter and struck and even over hooked on me once. ball speed was 17.5 on the monitor. How does a low flare ball hook from the gutter at around 40 feet and just dive bomb the pocket? I thought a low flare ball would reduce the actual hook and just barely curve into the pocket. I threw the ball correctly too, probably 13-14 degree axis tilt 45 degree rotation. The storm match pearl is what I would consider my weakest ball except for the BTU.

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Re: High diff. core/low flare layout vs. med diff/regular layout

Post by Starion » January 11th, 2020, 9:23 am

This thread is great & deserving of a bump. Thanks to all for contributing. I've re-read several times and making notes as I learn & ponder my two main centers' different conditions & equipment choice / drilling. Love the science & logic behind this. Cheers!

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