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 Post subject: Is there any relationship of the bowties to the PAP?
 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:41 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I am wondering if all bowlers with a 4-1/2 x 1/2up, 5 X 0, etc PAP would have their bowties in the same place?


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 Post subject: Re: Is there any relationship of the bowties to the PAP?
 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:13 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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vicsmyth wrote:
I am wondering if all bowlers with a 4-1/2 x 1/2up, 5 X 0, etc PAP would have their bowties in the same place?

Short answer no.

Layout determines where the bowties will be. Tilt is also another factor because that determines where the initial track will be.
Drawing a line from the PAP through the Pin to the initial track will give you an idea where the bowtie will be. Then half way around the initial track will show you where the other bowtie will be.

This is not exact but it is the best way I have found to "estimate" where the bowties will be.

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Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Is there any relationship of the bowties to the PAP?
 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:40 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Tilt is also another factor because that determines where the initial track will be.


Thank you for your reply. So there is not that much correlation between PAP and tilt as well? I saw a video where Mo said that a when a bowler changes hand position, coming straight up the back of the ball vs coming around the side of the ball, that the bowlers PAP will also change. When I change hand positions I can see that the tilt axis and rotation axis change, but it looks like my PAP stays the same.

I suppose then that there is no general rule of thumb that all 4-1/2 x 1/2up PAP bowlers fall in a tilt range of 15-20*, 5-1/2 x 0 PAP, 7-15*, etc.?


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 Post subject: Re: Is there any relationship of the bowties to the PAP?
 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:52 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Axis tilt is dependent ONLY on the diameter of the initial track ring. You can have the same PAP location with different initial track ring diameters and the same axis tilt for different PAP locations.

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I suppose then that there is no general rule of thumb that all 4-1/2 x 1/2up PAP bowlers fall in a tilt range of 15-20*, 5-1/2 x 0 PAP, 7-15*, etc.?


Question answered above, but there is a TENDENCY for PAP's with lower horizontal components to have higher axis tilt and PAP's with higher horizontal components to have lower axis tilt. You can't be SURE until you measure the initial track ring diameter. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Is there any relationship of the bowties to the PAP?
 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:08 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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vicsmyth wrote:

Thank you for your reply. So there is not that much correlation between PAP and tilt as well? I saw a video where Mo said that a when a bowler changes hand position, coming straight up the back of the ball vs coming around the side of the ball, that the bowlers PAP will also change. When I change hand positions I can see that the tilt axis and rotation axis change, but it looks like my PAP stays the same.

I suppose then that there is no general rule of thumb that all 4-1/2 x 1/2up PAP bowlers fall in a tilt range of 15-20*, 5-1/2 x 0 PAP, 7-15*, etc.?


Correct there is a slight correlation between PAP and tilt but not a high one, it has more to do with the physiology of your hand, your grip, and release.

The answer is always measure your pap the proper way.

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Paul Ridenour
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer


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 Post subject: Re: Is there any relationship of the bowties to the PAP?
 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:39 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I bowled with a guy who's PAP was 3" over. He had low tilt and high rotation, turned the ball like a doorknob.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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