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 Post subject: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:23 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Was fortunate enough this year to be able to put some $ into new equipment since I am dropping down from 15#'s to 14#'s. Balls are arriving this week, and have a question on laying out an arsenal, since I'll be rolling more tournaments this winter/spring, and going to Vegas for the US Open as well.

I have coming: Radical Katana, Katana Dragon, Intel, and Fix. Motiv Hydra, Tank Rampage, Midnight Sniper (spare)
I may order before the US Open trip, a Hammer Web Tour. (or 2 lol)

I have recently been throwing a buddy's Columbia 300 Swerve, general Pin-Up drilling, no weight hole and have scored really well, and like the look I'm getting with it on our THS. My kind-of high track might present some drilling challenges, I'm sure. (Right Mo?) :D

I spent a lot of time trying to pick out balls spread out along the length and hook potential chart, to try to cover as many different conditions that I might see. Usually I get a new ball and drill that ball based on what I like, but honestly- I end up with a fair number of balls that have similar reactions that don't give me too much option when I hit a condition that I am not used to, such as different tournament sport patterns.

My question is this- since I bought them based on their potential, is it more sensible to drill them, based on my release- to perform as designed, rather than trying to make some stronger, some weaker, even if "intended design" drillings are simply the General Purpose "A" or "1" drillings? I'd like to skip any MOvement holes and keep them under 3oz so they won't be obsolete in a couple of years. I know this could mean that I use 2 or 3 balls for 90% of my bowling, a few for the rest, and may actually never use one. I get that- just curious what others think. :D

Obviously it depends ultimately on my individual game and needs, just wondering if anyone has started up with a bunch of blank canvases, and chose to drill one way or another.

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PAP: 5-1/8" + 1/4"
RPM: 340
Axis Rotation: 45*
Axis Tilt: 12*
Speed: 14.5 mph by monitor

Radical The Fix, Intel, Katana, Katana Dragon; Motiv Tank Rampage, Hydra, Midnight Sniper spare


Last edited by PIJoe on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:07 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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In my opinion, yes you are better off sticking to two proven layouts (one pin up and the other pin down) so that you can take advantage of how the balls were designed. If you buy them based on their potential and then change them individually by using different layouts, how will you know what you have?


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:32 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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In most cases there is a marketed reaction shape, but this can be modified with layouts.
Also, layouts are designed with your release specs in mind.
Those release specs can help you match up optimally to the design intent better and help you get more for the money.
If you can get your Positive Axis Point, Axis Tilt and Axis Rotation, I can help prescribe layouts for your Radical balls.
If not, get a video directly behind your shot line and zoomed on the ball and I can best guess, but you still need your PAP for layouts.
If not, stick to the drill sheet, but it will be a generalization.
Do you want your ball reactions to be guesses after spending all that money?
Spend the time to get your release specs, its worth it to get it done right.

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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:40 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Here we go again...

Pin up and pin down are too general and inaccurate. Yes I do agree that a few layout is a good way to go but it all depends on your release specs. For example, a high tilt speed dominant player will lean towards stronger layouts while a two hander will generally lean towards control layouts. Take a medium oil ball and drill it with what would be a “Benchmark” layout for your specific release specs, not mine, not Robs, your release specs (PAP, speed, rpms, tilt and rotation). Roll the ball on different patterns and based on the reaction decide what other reaction you need and drill another ball designed for the reaction accordingly. Repeat, repeat, repeat and think about different conditions and transitions. If you don’t feel confident doing this yourself work with a coach qualified in setting up tournament arsenals or a pro shop that knows how to do this. Post your location and I am sure someone here can make a good recommendation.

How do you differentiate balls and their reaction? ...they all have different names and colors, like they teach us in kindergarten... have a notebook and keep track of balls and their reaction, patterns and transitions where you rolled them, layouts and surfaces on them.

If you want to be competitive you need to understand ball reaction, it’s a good idea to take the BowlingChat course at BCU and read all you find in the wiki. Start with the three phases of ball motion...

The neat thing about Radical is that you have access to the recommendations of the ball designer, no other company does that.

Or drill half pin up and half pin down and bring your rabbit’s foot.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:33 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Tony: Please note that I referred to two "proven layouts." I'm not suggesting trying two arbitrary layouts. As to "here we go again," yes that's unfortunately true. I just can't see the logic in doing all the research that this guy has done as to the balls intent, just to destroy the understanding with manipulated layouts.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:57 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
Tony: Please note that I referred to two "proven layouts." I'm not suggesting trying two arbitrary layouts. As to "here we go again," yes that's unfortunately true. I just can't see the logic in doing all the research that this guy has done as to the balls intent, just to destroy the understanding with manipulated layouts.


Nothing is destroyed.
Its matching the bowler and his release up to the ball's design.
Everybody rolls the ball differently, its important to take that into account when designing a reaction shape via layout.
How do you "prove" anything? Throw shit at the wall until it sticks or follow a scientific method or system?
A system of layouts can remove the guesswork.
Dumbing down layouts does a service to no bowler.

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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:53 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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“A pin up and a pin down layout” is way too much of a generalization, take for example a high track bowler who clips the middle finger, he can’t use “pin down” layouts so two “proven” layouts for that specific case would both be “pin up” so that the pin stays above and to the right (for a right hander bowler) of a line from the ring finger to the PAP so two pin up layouts for him. Could be a pin up and a pin in the ring finger but in order to know what that translates to in dual angle we need to know the PAP and I have seen some very strange PAPs.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:13 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
“A pin up and a pin down layout” is way too much of a generalization, take for example a high track bowler who clips the middle finger, he can’t use “pin down” layouts so two “proven” layouts for that specific case would both be “pin up” so that the pin stays above and to the right (for a right hander bowler) of a line from the ring finger to the PAP so two pin up layouts for him. Could be a pin up and a pin in the ring finger but in order to know what that translates to in dual angle we need to know the PAP and I have seen some very strange PAPs.


Obviously if a bowler cannot use pin down layouts, then one or two proven pin up layouts would be his choice. I just don't understand how, in this instance where a bowler has already purchased a seven ball arsenal based on the design intents of the balls, anyone can justify altering those design intents which were taken into consideration when purchasing the balls.

It seems like every discussion of fewer vs. more layouts always comes down to something about Dual Angle. Dual Angle is very effective and should have been used to come up with those proven layouts in the first place. It is also very effective when a bowler comes into his pro shop without already having purchased a ball and decides to purchase whatever ball the PSO wants to sell him with the promise that he can make the ball do something other than what it was designed to do. Talk about a disservice to the bowler!


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:16 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
I just don't understand how, in this instance where a bowler has already purchased a seven ball arsenal based on the design intents of the balls, anyone can justify altering those design intents which were taken into consideration when purchasing the balls.


Tell me Rob:

What is a layout that does not alter the design intent of a ball?

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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:40 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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The Alias symmetrical layout :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:14 am Post Number: #11 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Tell me Rob:

What is a layout that does not alter the design intent of a ball?


A layout that allows the intent of the design of the ball to be all that it can be in the hands of a particular bowler. I'm not advocating using a generic layout, just one that was developed for the bowler and has proven to be successful for him. By using that layout on an arsenal that has been preplanned to get specific reactions, the bowler will know exactly what to expect from each ball that he purchased.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:58 am Post Number: #12 Post
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RobMautner wrote:

A layout that allows the intent of the design of the ball to be all that it can be in the hands of a particular bowler. I'm not advocating using a generic layout, just one that was developed for the bowler and has proven to be successful for him. By using that layout on an arsenal that has been preplanned to get specific reactions, the bowler will know exactly what to expect from each ball that he purchased.


The answer really is: No layout preserves design intent as long as there are holes drilled in the ball.
Once a drill bit takes material out, everything changes.

Now you say "just one".

What you are prescribing is obtuse in the world of ball design and so many variables that affect ball motion.
There are so many facets including levels of core and cover dominance, coverstock composition and how it interacts with the lane surface, amounts of asymmetry, core shape and the density of materials just to name a few. I havent even gotten into how the bowler throws it yet, which determines how all of those elements shape the ball in the hook zone and how far the ball skids.

"Just one" isnt enough, how symmetricals and asymmetrical cores migrate are completely different and how they match up to particular bowler types and releases vary greatly.

Very general here:
Putting a high flare layout like 60 x 5.5 x 35 on a strong core asymmetric ball with an aggressive cover on a low tilt, low rotation bowler will have an awful look in all but the tightest of lanes. So bad they may never use it.
That same layout ?? x 5.5 x 35 on symmetrical cored medium covered ball may be a great look. This bowler would need a spectrum of layouts based on the amount of asymmetry in the ball and how fast the PAP migrates to manage how well they get thru the front part of the lane and burn off very little tilt and the amount of rotation they have. Bowlers cannot be all put into one bucket.

I'll use our buddy Nord as an example. Do you think I got lucky sending him the ball I did and prescribing the layout I did? What I sent him was very specific to his situation and release. This is the art of layouts Rob. There is no magic layout for any particular bowler that will translate well to all balls and give the bowler a spectrum of ball shapes to be successful outside of 1 particular situation. Each ball design comes with its limitations to ball motion and each bowler has their own limitations to ball motion. 1 layout on 1 ball may be good in one situation and that same layout on a different ball may be outside of that particular bowlers "reaction box" as described with the low tilt bowler example above.

Its up to us as ball motion professionals to give the customer the best shape possible within their reaction limitations based on their release, not based on the ball design alone.

Your idea is especially bad with the new rules in 2020 restricting balance holes.
We gotta get it right first shot now, not many tuning opportunities left, especially tuning down, and the "close enough shrug" wont keep pro shops in business.

I dont agree with you and never will on this topic.
As long as you post on this forum I will rebut you every time on it and do it in the most detailed way possible.

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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:09 am Post Number: #13 Post
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And I don't agree with you on this topic. I really can't say that I never will as I continue to learn and think each day. Thankfully there is room for differing opinions in this world. The fact that two individuals have differing opinions does not automatically make one wrong... just different.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:50 am Post Number: #14 Post
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What MegaMav is presenting is not opinion, it is based on Physics-based facts. As a skilled bowler who has had him lay out my entire arsenal over the past couple of years, I can honestly say that the six balls I have, with varying layouts that are all different, allow me to very rarely be without options on a pattern whether it is fresh or not; and I bowl on a different challenge or sport pattern each week.

Since he and I are good friends, he has taken the time to walk me through several aspects of the dual angle system to the point where I understand the principles and can come close to designing my own layouts based on what I already have and my current needs.

Essentially, the goal of the dual angle system is to position the weight block in a certain unstable position so that as the ball reads friction, the specific amount of instability will determine the shapes of the hook and roll phases. By using specific calculations based on each specific bowler’s roll, the dual angle system used correctly can help any bowler achieve their desired ball reaction.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:07 am Post Number: #15 Post
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I might be missing something, but why are you getting a katana dragon and a fix? are you going to drill the fix to be more symmetrical then asym? If you are then that make since but if you aren't why didn't you change one of those out for like the conspiracy? Both the previous balls are for heavy oil and close to the same diff and rg, surface is close 1500/2000 gritt. core shapes are different.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:54 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Wow... Ok, I'd like to read through the thread a bit and try to digest them, and see where everyone is coming from, but I do appreciate the great replies!

One thing, as it was requested a few times- my release specs are in my signature, those were figured out last week. Slo-mo cam and protractors and the Pro Sect and the 'dillo was a nice diversion for a few hours to get it figured out for my releases, since I haven't done that since I was fitted for my new purple NuLine Excalibur in college. :lol:

Anyhow, I have in my sig that those specs are my "normal release" and what I'll base drillings off of. I do have a more "cranked" release, and a more straight up the back release, but my whole idea with building the arsenal is to try to get away from having to use them and have the correct ball to get the desired reaction without having to manipulate so much.

Quote:
I might be missing something, but why are you getting a katana dragon and a fix? are you going to drill the fix to be more symmetrical then asym? If you are then that make since but if you aren't why didn't you change one of those out for like the conspiracy? Both the previous balls are for heavy oil and close to the same diff and rg, surface is close 1500/2000 gritt. core shapes are different.


As for the idea of why a Fix and a KD in the same bag it twofold- first they do have a different shape, and the hook potentials OOB are different, so it is already a different look. Second, Since the Fix has SO many different possible layouts both sym (it is what I was thinking to go more sym) and asym, it gives me a chance to drill everything around it first, then see where I might need a gap filled, but the Fix is the only ball I'd like to tailor a layout for. Maybe a little bit aside from the point of the thread, but there are so many different possibilities with it, it's kind of a special scenario I suppose.

The biggest issue right now is I just had to buy another triple roller bag :lol:

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Normal Release
PAP: 5-1/8" + 1/4"
RPM: 340
Axis Rotation: 45*
Axis Tilt: 12*
Speed: 14.5 mph by monitor

Radical The Fix, Intel, Katana, Katana Dragon; Motiv Tank Rampage, Hydra, Midnight Sniper spare


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:18 am Post Number: #17 Post
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This was the comparison I was looking at, just for a visual. I plugged these into the bowlingthismonth website to get this graph. I think this (minus showing the Motiv Tank Rampage but you know where it would be low and left and the possible Hammer Web Tour, because I haven't bought it yet- if I do)

Image

L -> R: Hydra, Katana (red dot), Intel (orange dot), Fix, Katana Dragon
If not familiar, yellow is less backend than orange, orange is less backend than red, which is the most backend. Size of the dot=torque, all 7.5 but Katana=8.5, and Katana Dragon is rated at 7.

I'm probably micromanaging this, but the numbers and science fascinate me. :lol:

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Normal Release
PAP: 5-1/8" + 1/4"
RPM: 340
Axis Rotation: 45*
Axis Tilt: 12*
Speed: 14.5 mph by monitor

Radical The Fix, Intel, Katana, Katana Dragon; Motiv Tank Rampage, Hydra, Midnight Sniper spare


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:09 am Post Number: #18 Post
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There’s one more piece of the puzzle missing in your signature, your ball speed. Please specify if it is speed off the hand or monitor speed.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:04 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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"What MegaMav is presenting is not opinion, it is based on Physics-based facts. "

Let me try and simplify this for all of you. I'm not saying that what MegaMav is presenting is wrong. I'm not saying that it is not based on solid principles of physics. What I believe is that the more a bowler understands about his own bowling balls, the better off he is. In order to do this, using a limited number of layouts helps to simplify the process. If you have a great ball driller who is not only knowledgeable, but is also willing to honestly help you, then great for you. Unfortunately, for every driller like this, there are ten who are clueless about layouts, only interested in selling the ball where the most profit can be found, and is looking forward to going home before he ever starts work for the day.

For all of those bowlers who are stuck going to one of the 90% of PSO's, their only option is to learn as much as they can about bowling balls, and the most effective way of doing this is to use a limited number of layouts. Since I am often misunderstood about this, please let me clarify. When I say one pin up and one pin down, or just one, or just two, I am not saying which ones to pick. I am just saying that, using whatever criteria the bowler chooses, using limited layout makes more sense if you are not in a position to use a competent PSO to do your bidding.


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 Post subject: Re: New 7 ball arsenal, arrangement question
 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:37 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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http://above180.com/category/ball-drill ... es-series/


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