Board index » General Forums » Ball Talk




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:11 pm Post Number: #1 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: February 8, 2015
Posts: 47
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
JUST DID A SESSION ON THE BOWLERS ID THAT MY PSO JUST GOT...MY STATS ARE AS FOLLOWS

REV RATE....252
BALL SPEED.....17.5
AXIS ROTATION.....85 DEGREES
AXIS TILT.....7.6
PAP.....5 INCHES OVER AND 1 1/16

AFTER TALKING TO MY PSO HE SAYS SLIGHTLY SPEED DOMINANT WITH HIGH ROTATION AND LOW TILT....LOWER TOTALS AND DRILLING ANGLES WERE SUGGESTED.....ANY HELP WITH AN ARSENAL INCUDING SPORT SHOT LAYOUTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:51 pm Post Number: #2 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
jobowl wrote:
JUST DID A SESSION ON THE BOWLERS ID THAT MY PSO JUST GOT...MY STATS ARE AS FOLLOWS

REV RATE....252
BALL SPEED.....17.5
AXIS ROTATION.....85 DEGREES
AXIS TILT.....7.6
PAP.....5 INCHES OVER AND 1 1/16

AFTER TALKING TO MY PSO HE SAYS SLIGHTLY SPEED DOMINANT WITH HIGH ROTATION AND LOW TILT....LOWER TOTALS AND DRILLING ANGLES WERE SUGGESTED.....ANY HELP WITH AN ARSENAL INCUDING SPORT SHOT LAYOUTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED


Bowler ID is taken from a non-flaring ball. When laying out a High Flaring ball and layout I suggest finding your PAP on a High flaring ball and use that for High Flare set-ups.

A good idea to add your specs to your signature making for easier reference in the future.

Benchmark totals not necessarily lower. Speed to Revs yes slightly speed dominant, but once you factor in low tilt it raises the totals, then factor in the high rotation and I would consider you Matched. With all that said Benchmark total 95*, Ratio 1.75:1

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............... 50-4-25
Midlane ........................ 40-4-35
Benchmark .................. 60-3.75-35
Long and Strong ........... 80-3.5-35
Control ........................ 60-3.25-55
low flare ...................... 80-2.25-35

Symmetrical Layouts... drilling angles to Cg
Totally Strong ............... Double Thumb Layout
Midlane ....................... 50-4-35 bal hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark .................. 75-4-30
Long and Strong ........... 95-3.5-40 Motion Hole
Control ........................ 65-4.25-50 bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL adjust to pin in the Ring finger
low flare ...................... 75-5-30

Asymmetrical Sport layouts
Short Sport ....... 30-4.5-55 Adjust to Pin the the Ring finger
Med Sport ......... 30-5-45 P3
Long Sport ........ 35-5.25-35 P3

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:56 am Post Number: #3 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: February 8, 2015
Posts: 47
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Just to let you know... That my PSO also put a hole in an existing ball I had in the same location... The only real change was the rev rate.... With their ball it was around 225...with my ball it was 254....the PAP only changed about 1/16 in both directions.... Also since I have a high axis rotation shouldn't asymmetrical balls be closer to 5 inches to burn off some of the axis rotation and why is the symmetric benchmark total so high... Thanks again.... Also wonder is the ratio should be lower


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:20 am Post Number: #4 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: December 17, 2016
Posts: 75
Reputation: 10
Reputation Power: 1
jobowl wrote:
Just to let you know... That my PSO also put a hole in an existing ball I had in the same location... The only real change was the rev rate.... With their ball it was around 225...with my ball it was 254....the PAP only changed about 1/16 in both directions.... Also since I have a high axis rotation shouldn't asymmetrical balls be closer to 5 inches to burn off some of the axis rotation and why is the symmetric benchmark total so high... Thanks again.... Also wonder is the ratio should be lower

Moving the pin-pap distance out to around 5" or further on asym's is putting you in a "tradeoff"...the longer pin-pap isn't good for your lower tilt as it will make the ball roll sooner. You are better off using surface to determine how early the ball starts to move for you since the layout is a "set" factor in your reaction.

I believe Eric made a typo there...that should be 65x4x30 for your sym benchmark.

_________________
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:20 am Post Number: #5 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
bfweld wrote:
Moving the pin-pap distance out to around 5" or further on asym's is putting you in a "tradeoff"...the longer pin-pap isn't good for your lower tilt as it will make the ball roll sooner. You are better off using surface to determine how early the ball starts to move for you since the layout is a "set" factor in your reaction.

I believe Eric made a typo there...that should be 65x4x30 for your sym benchmark.

No typo, see my disclaimer
EricHartwell wrote:
Symmetrical Layouts... drilling angles to Cg

No balance hole necessary if the Cg is closer to the grip center.

bfweld is right about your low tilt being the determining factor when I chose the pin to PAP's.
Use surface to burn off your rotation.
Unless you like that skid snap reaction.

I gave layouts for a "Basic" arsenal. Custom layouts for specific reactions need to take into account the ball to be drilled and lane condition for which it will be used on.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:34 pm Post Number: #6 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: February 8, 2015
Posts: 47
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
I'm a little confused ...I have always been told that with my very high axis rotation to keep my drilling angles lower ...had balls drilled with as low as 35 degrees on the drill angle....I guess that having a little more drill angle or retaining energy actually helps me ...also I see that all your VAL angles will keep the pin either on level or above my fingers is that the same reason... so I guess that more skid /snap is better...


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:17 am Post Number: #7 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3878
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 855
Reputation Power: 9
jobowl wrote:
I'm a little confused ...I have always been told that with my very high axis rotation to keep my drilling angles lower ...had balls drilled with as low as 35 degrees on the drill angle....I guess that having a little more drill angle or retaining energy actually helps me ...also I see that all your VAL angles will keep the pin either on level or above my fingers is that the same reason... so I guess that more skid /snap is better...


I think you are confused.
You've mixed up drill angles with angle ratios.
Lower angle ratios for less volatile reactions.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:18 am Post Number: #8 Post
Offline
Trusted Source

Joined: January 18, 2010
Posts: 3026
Reputation: 432
Reputation Power: 5
jobowl wrote:
I'm a little confused ...I have always been told that with my very high axis rotation to keep my drilling angles lower ...had balls drilled with as low as 35 degrees on the drill angle....I guess that having a little more drill angle or retaining energy actually helps me ...also I see that all your VAL angles will keep the pin either on level or above my fingers is that the same reason... so I guess that more skid /snap is better...

Here is the chart I made after studying as many of Mo's recommendations as possible at the time:
Attachment:
Decrease_low_tilt_on_Athery%27s_chart.pdf

You will notice that I had a 7.5* tilt bowler with high rotation and speed dominant pegged at 1.5:1 ratio for a benchmark.

What I would tell you is that if that is too much skid/snap for you, lower the ratios. That was just supposed to be a middle of the road/ middle reaction/ type layout for you to adjust layouts from. Most bowlers were very pleased with Mo's recommendations, but you might be the exception.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:10 pm Post Number: #9 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: February 8, 2015
Posts: 47
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Now I understand.... Thanks for the advice.... I have at least 2 balls that are very close to your benchmark symmetrical drilling they are both 55 x 3 1/2 x 35 with xtra hole in them... Have had some success with these drillings.... Have a No Rules drilled 55 x 3 3/4 x 35 loose close to your benchmark also.... Going to drill a Sure lock... PSO suggested 45 x 4 1/2 x25 to compliment the No Rules... Going to get a Code Red and a Show Off... Any suggestions... Also going to plug a DareDevil Trick that has a 45 x 5 x75 drilling on it.... Any ideas?


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:38 pm Post Number: #10 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
jobowl wrote:
Now I understand.... Thanks for the advice.... I have at least 2 balls that are very close to your benchmark symmetrical drilling they are both 55 x 3 1/2 x 35 with xtra hole in them... Have had some success with these drillings.... Have a No Rules drilled 55 x 3 3/4 x 35 loose close to your benchmark also.... Going to drill a Sure lock... PSO suggested 45 x 4 1/2 x25 to compliment the No Rules... Going to get a Code Red and a Show Off... Any suggestions... Also going to plug a DareDevil Trick that has a 45 x 5 x75 drilling on it.... Any ideas?

Code Red ...............Long and Strong..... 80-3.5-35
Show Off .................Control ............... 65-4.25-50 bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL adjust to pin in the Ring
DareDevil Trick ......... low flare ............ 75-5-30

Just curious, why are you going to redrill the DareDevil Trick?

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:18 pm Post Number: #11 Post
Offline
Certified Coach
User avatar

Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 649
Location: Germany
Reputation: 131
Reputation Power: 2
jobowl wrote:
JUST DID A SESSION ON THE BOWLERS ID THAT MY PSO JUST GOT...MY STATS ARE AS FOLLOWS

REV RATE....252
BALL SPEED.....17.5
AXIS ROTATION.....85 DEGREES
AXIS TILT.....7.6
PAP.....5 INCHES OVER AND 1 1/16

AFTER TALKING TO MY PSO HE SAYS SLIGHTLY SPEED DOMINANT WITH HIGH ROTATION AND LOW TILT....LOWER TOTALS AND DRILLING ANGLES WERE SUGGESTED.....ANY HELP WITH AN ARSENAL INCUDING SPORT SHOT LAYOUTS WOULD BE APPRECIATED


Bowlers ID sucks!!!!
I had a session with it and all the results where miles off my true specs. I ran in confusion and Posted it here. Mo said I should stay cool and just forget the results and recheck. I did and my old specs where the right ones.
So I recommand!!!!! Befor you change anything check your specs with the usual methods. If you have no Ideas how look in the WIKI there are guides to check your specs!!!!

_________________
Bowlingtrainer (B-License (silver level)), ProShop operator.
tilt:13°, rot:55°, revs: 300, speed:17mph; all off hand
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nice people press +


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:01 am Post Number: #12 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: February 8, 2015
Posts: 47
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Hey Nando I don't know when you did your session but this is the new and improved version of Bowlers ID.... Supposed to be more accurate

Eric the DareDevil Trick was given to me with the layout on it already.... Might just leave it as a control ball I just wanted it to be stronger off the pattern... It is very smooth... Not sure if it is the ball design or the layout.... What are your thoughts any suggestions?


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:04 am Post Number: #13 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: February 8, 2015
Posts: 47
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Sorry I meant NSANE NOT NANDO


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: BOWLERS ID ...NEED LAYOUTS
 Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:30 am Post Number: #14 Post
Offline
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 2841
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 246
Reputation Power: 3
jobowl wrote:
Hey Nando I don't know when you did your session but this is the new and improved version of Bowlers ID.... Supposed to be more accurate

Eric the DareDevil Trick was given to me with the layout on it already.... Might just leave it as a control ball I just wanted it to be stronger off the pattern... It is very smooth... Not sure if it is the ball design or the layout.... What are your thoughts any suggestions?

Probably a combination of both.
The layout I suggested is a stronger layout and will still give you a smoother reaction and roll earlier than the existing layout.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

Board index » General Forums » Ball Talk


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: