New Ball Specs, Collusion?
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New Ball Specs, Collusion?
A few folks have opined about possible collusion between USBC and Ball Manufacturers regarding new ball "specs".
Not that it will change anything, but just for fun, I thought I'd start a poll.
Polls have a tendency to be ignored here, but what the heck.
Folks can vote anonymously or weigh in with comments.
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You will be allowed to change your vote.
Consumers vote at the cash register, and that is the tale of the tape, but scores are intoxicating.
Not that it will change anything, but just for fun, I thought I'd start a poll.
Polls have a tendency to be ignored here, but what the heck.
Folks can vote anonymously or weigh in with comments.
Forum Guests May Vote
Membership NOT Required
You will be allowed to change your vote.
Consumers vote at the cash register, and that is the tale of the tape, but scores are intoxicating.
Last edited by kajmk on March 4th, 2019, 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
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- EricHartwell
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
Yes, I am one of the people that think there is collusion between the manufacturers and the USBC.
Track released the Alias and new ball manufacturing specifications to allow any drilling method/ Cg location almost a year before the USBC announced the new rule changes.
No other manufacturers released any press releases speaking out against the changes.
Track released the Alias and new ball manufacturing specifications to allow any drilling method/ Cg location almost a year before the USBC announced the new rule changes.
No other manufacturers released any press releases speaking out against the changes.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- EricHartwell
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I see there are 2 people at this time that don't think there is collusion, Wish they would have commented as to why they think not. I could use something to dial back my pessimism.
I see this type of thing all the time in my profession. I am an electrician governed by the Nation Fire Protection Agency (NFPA). Every 3 years the electrical code is updated. Many of the code references (laws) are pushed through by the parts manufacturers. They want to sell their new products so they do what that can to make us in the field use those particular products.
It is no different than politicians passing laws for special interest groups and corporate entities.
Unfortunately it is the American way.
I see this type of thing all the time in my profession. I am an electrician governed by the Nation Fire Protection Agency (NFPA). Every 3 years the electrical code is updated. Many of the code references (laws) are pushed through by the parts manufacturers. They want to sell their new products so they do what that can to make us in the field use those particular products.
It is no different than politicians passing laws for special interest groups and corporate entities.
Unfortunately it is the American way.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
On Inside Bowling 2019 Fusion Realtors going on this weekend, Tom Hess and them think it’ll help PSO’s stay in compliance and save time ensuring they have it in spec. So basically it’ll help crappy PSOs make equipment legal instead of going to a tournament and having balance holes drilled because they messed up laying it out.
Stacy
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I don't disagree it is going to make it easier for lame PSO's to keep the statics legal. My driller has relocated his scale off the front counter because he doesn't need to weigh a ball anymore to verify legal static weight. The new rules make his job easier and quicker. In essence he is getting paid more by the hour to get a ball out the door. Less work, less time for the same price.44boyd wrote:On Inside Bowling 2019 Fusion Realtors going on this weekend, Tom Hess and them think it’ll help PSO’s stay in compliance and save time ensuring they have it in spec. So basically it’ll help crappy PSOs make equipment legal instead of going to a tournament and having balance holes drilled because they messed up laying it out.
It will also benefit the manufacturers because they will not have to do what Track did making their top weigh specs/locations more stringent. They can actually relax their standard creating less waste, out of spec balls, easier set up with the molds making for more sell-able balls comming off the line.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
Good issue and worthy of discussion.
More cats guarding the birdies?
I'm afraid the good PSOs and men of conscience within the business might be in a conundrum insofar as weighing in on the prospect of collusion.
[youtube][/youtube]
More cats guarding the birdies?
I'm afraid the good PSOs and men of conscience within the business might be in a conundrum insofar as weighing in on the prospect of collusion.
[youtube][/youtube]
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I voted no, because i dont THINK there is collusion. Only those in the industry know, surely there would be someone with a conscious to speak up / leak the truth.EricHartwell wrote:I see there are 2 people at this time that don't think there is collusion, Wish they would have commented as to why they think not. I could use something to dial back my pessimism.
I see this type of thing all the time in my profession. I am an electrician governed by the Nation Fire Protection Agency (NFPA). Every 3 years the electrical code is updated. Many of the code references (laws) are pushed through by the parts manufacturers. They want to sell their new products so they do what that can to make us in the field use those particular products.
It is no different than politicians passing laws for special interest groups and corporate entities.
Unfortunately it is the American way.
USBC have their reasons and are clever enough for them, or just not very clever.
R/H, 20 mph off hand. 250 Revs.
11* Tilt. 70* Rotation. 5 5/8 x 1"up
11* Tilt. 70* Rotation. 5 5/8 x 1"up
- MegaMav
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I think there was cooperation, not collusion based on what I've been told.
Good poll.
Good poll.
- EricHartwell
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I believe this is so true.kajmk wrote:I'm afraid the good PSOs and men of conscience within the business might be in a conundrum insofar as weighing in on the prospect of collusion.
MegaMav wrote:I think there was cooperation, not collusion based on what I've been told.
Good poll.
Collusion is a strong word...
col·lu·sion Dictionary result for collusion
noun
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
Obviously I feel strongly about the topic. The new rules are costing me a bunch of time and money to rebuild my arsenal. I feel cheated. It was not illegal cooperation but it was done in secrecy.
I also understand that companies need to stay profitable and ways of doing this is to eliminate waste and streamline manufacturing processes. But to mandate expenditures on my part leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I voted NO, simply based on the definition of collusion.
My understanding is there is a particular individual in USBC that tends to get tunnel vision when dealing with perceived problems. When he is made aware of an issue, he will focus on only 1 possible solution, regardless of where science and reality point. Thus, he felt balance holes needed to be eliminated for the sake of the sport. And I believe that he believes that is true. I don't agree, but USBC didn't ask me.
I agree the 3 ounce expansion was a concession to manufactures from USBC, since they couldn't grasp the repercussions of such a drastic change. I think when the manufacturers were told about the proposed changes, they pushed for the 3 ounces since they realized how it could help them. But I don't see that as improper. We'd be much worse off if we still had to fall under 1 oz limits.
I also think "in secrecy" is a bit harsh. We may not have been involved in the discussions on this, but that's not a first (for me, anyway). Granted, this won't affect my arsenal much, so I don't feel as strongly as others might. Perception vs. Reality, it seems. Maybe one day we'll know the truth.
My understanding is there is a particular individual in USBC that tends to get tunnel vision when dealing with perceived problems. When he is made aware of an issue, he will focus on only 1 possible solution, regardless of where science and reality point. Thus, he felt balance holes needed to be eliminated for the sake of the sport. And I believe that he believes that is true. I don't agree, but USBC didn't ask me.
I agree the 3 ounce expansion was a concession to manufactures from USBC, since they couldn't grasp the repercussions of such a drastic change. I think when the manufacturers were told about the proposed changes, they pushed for the 3 ounces since they realized how it could help them. But I don't see that as improper. We'd be much worse off if we still had to fall under 1 oz limits.
I also think "in secrecy" is a bit harsh. We may not have been involved in the discussions on this, but that's not a first (for me, anyway). Granted, this won't affect my arsenal much, so I don't feel as strongly as others might. Perception vs. Reality, it seems. Maybe one day we'll know the truth.
Right Handed
Speed: 18 mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: ~350 rpm
Tilt: 10*
Rotation: 55*
PAP: 5 1/8" right, 1/2" up
Speed: 18 mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: ~350 rpm
Tilt: 10*
Rotation: 55*
PAP: 5 1/8" right, 1/2" up
- snick
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I believe that the rule changes will ultimately benefit the business of bowling from manufacturer to the proshop. It is the consumers that will end up paying for it, in terms of more expensive ball designs to replace symms, and balance hole plugging fees, which will add up quickly for bowlers with large arsenals.
Whether or not the rule changes were conceived to benefit manufacturers, the net result conforms well to the theory of collusion. And I believe "collusion" may be the right term to use in this case, if the actual and publicly stated intents of the rule changes differ significantly.
And a shout out to Mo, I threw the new Radical Conspiracy Pearl (an interesting label in the context of this discussion) at an all manufacturers demo this weekend and it was by far my favorite ball. I literally could not find a deep enough inside line to leave corner pins with it.
Whether or not the rule changes were conceived to benefit manufacturers, the net result conforms well to the theory of collusion. And I believe "collusion" may be the right term to use in this case, if the actual and publicly stated intents of the rule changes differ significantly.
And a shout out to Mo, I threw the new Radical Conspiracy Pearl (an interesting label in the context of this discussion) at an all manufacturers demo this weekend and it was by far my favorite ball. I literally could not find a deep enough inside line to leave corner pins with it.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I voted "do not care", since I do not bowl on any USBC leagues or tournaments other than an occasional Pro Am for fun. I also drill and plug my own bowling balls (and occasionally add balance holes, motion holes and rebar to tinker with static weights).
I keep reading on the Internet that "static weights don't matter". If that is true why bother regulating them?
I keep reading on the Internet that "static weights don't matter". If that is true why bother regulating them?
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
Once you get around 4 ounces it can have an effect on legal weight balls.vicsmyth wrote:I voted "do not care", since I do not bowl on any USBC leagues or tournaments other than an occasional Pro Am for fun. I also drill and plug my own bowling balls (and occasionally add balance holes, motion holes and rebar to tinker with static weights).
I keep reading on the Internet that "static weights don't matter". If that is true why bother regulating them?
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
LOL - that was what my wife's ball looked like until I got it drilled properly. She rolls backup but it was drilled "properly" (PSO was an idiot) - and no, not to that extent, but you could see it fighting itself.MegaMav wrote:
Once you get around 4 ounces it can have an effect on legal weight balls.
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Statics: 5.875 oz bottom, 3.75 oz side, 3.75 oz finger
I chose, "don't care" because collusion is such a trigger word right now. Do I THINK they secretly made arrangements? No. Do I think they made SECRET arrangements? No, probably not. Does it make a difference? No.
The ABC/USBC/WIBC/blah flavor of the decade does things like this regularly. We end up paying for it by buying new equipment, much of which we'd buy anyway, eventually.
But our complaining about 3oz not making a difference - when plugging our balance holes, NOW does that 3oz make a difference?
Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I voted no. From what I have read, some of the rules are for oil absorption by the ball cover and trying to make the oil pattern last as long is it can. If I understand this right, this is a good thing. I am a two handed bowler and also agree with the flipping over of the ball 180 degrees. Also agree with the balance hole thing since it clears up a lot of issues. It's now a thumb hole or it isn't. I'm lucky anyway since I just dropped from 15# to 14# and so I need new stuff.
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
IMO, all bowlers should be allowed a fitted thumbhole, regardless of their play style. This is really the only aspect of the equipment rules with which I strongly disagree.
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Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
We two handers no thumb bowlers were able to control PSA placement (drilling angle) on symmetrical balls by drilling a balance hole, after August 2020 if for example we want a 55* drilling angle, we need to get an asymmetrical cored ball.poem58 wrote:I voted no. From what I have read, some of the rules are for oil absorption by the ball cover and trying to make the oil pattern last as long is it can. If I understand this right, this is a good thing. I am a two handed bowler and also agree with the flipping over of the ball 180 degrees. Also agree with the balance hole thing since it clears up a lot of issues. It's now a thumb hole or it isn't. I'm lucky anyway since I just dropped from 15# to 14# and so I need new stuff.
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
Same with us thumb in bowlers unless the PAP measurement is only 3 1/2 over from grip center.TonyPR wrote:
We two handers no thumb bowlers were able to control PSA placement (drilling angle) on symmetrical balls by drilling a balance hole, after August 2020 if for example we want a 55* drilling angle, we need to get an asymmetrical cored ball.
If it is even possible with a no thumber a PAP measurement of 3 1/8" over 1" up from center of bridge 4" pin to PAP 30* VAL and deep fingers I would predict a Drilling angle of 55*.
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Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
Drilling angle on symmetrical cored bowling balls is the least important factor in ball motion even with two handed layouts. The new regulations make the good layout window for your personal bowling style smaller than when weight holes were available.EricHartwell wrote: Same with us thumb in bowlers unless the PAP measurement is only 3 1/2 over from grip center.
If it is even possible with a no thumber a PAP measurement of 3 1/8" over 1" up from center of bridge 4" pin to PAP 30* VAL and deep fingers I would predict a Drilling angle of 55*.
There was no collusion, just cooperation.
Paul Ridenour
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer
Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?
I agree!purduepaul wrote:There was no collusion, just cooperation.
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If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
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