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 Post subject: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:03 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I was watching Sean Rash bowling last night and the announcer said that the pros play the inside of the ball and the amateurs play the outside. Does that mean that he stays under the ball through delivery and release (to create rotation) and the amateur comes around the ball or over the top?


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:28 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Have you tried contacting the commentator. If the comment is to be meaningful it should be self apparent. A good commentator should be able to make the commentary meaningful to the listener.


Last edited by JimH on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:48 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I believe that announcer is Randy Peterson. He has said that before on a few telecasts. And yes you interpreted his comment correctly. *most* pros stay on the inside and behind the ball much better than most of your once a week chuck and duck guys in league. A lot of amateurs hand position is on the outside part of the ball at release. Some call it *suitcase*. Some call it early turn.

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:24 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Playing the inside of the ball tends to produce a more stable, end over end roll making it much easier to control the back part of the lane. Pros, for the most part, use this kind of release. In general, the high rev guys stay pretty much straight up the back of the ball, unless they are playing SUPER deep. You can still create a lot of motion staying up the back of the ball, but it's controllable motion.

There are a lot of videos around showing slow motion releases. To get a visual, the best examples, in my opinion are Barnes, Rash and Fagan. All three pretty much come straight up the back of the ball but still create a lot of ball motion.

As a comparison, the next time you bowl your local league, look and see how many bowlers are on the side of the ball before the ball is anywhere near the release area. Many are on the side of the ball from the get go.

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:30 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I think these are some of the slow motion releases Kelly is talking about:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... rn_Release


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:40 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:08 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Thanks, elgavachon! Those are some of the videos I had in mind. I forgot we even had those in the wiki. Wes Mallot's release in particular has always fascinated me. He sits behind the ball all the way through the swing then loads every thing up just before the ball reaches his ankle then unloads it all really quickly as the ball goes by his foot. Not a lot of motion at all, but he generates a pretty high rev rate. Efficiency of motion.

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:36 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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This from Bowlingdigital's 2010 BWC - High Def Slow Motion Studies (Men's )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL6Z_NS0KLY

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:49 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I dvr the Barbasol tournament of champions where they were playing the far left by the gutter and the announcer made that comment about rash vs tommy jones playing the inside of the ball. Pete Weber ended up winning though. I kind of new what they were talking about but wasn't quite sure. When I come up through the ball, I have to break my wrist (just before release) and not cup the ball on release. when I cup the ball I have a tendency to come up the side of the ball. This is something I have been practicing lately and see a big difference with my rotation now depending on which wrist support that i'm wearing also.


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:07 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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turbotwister wrote:
I was watching Sean Rash bowling last night and the announcer said that the pros play the inside of the ball and the amateurs play the outside. Does that mean that he stays under the ball through delivery and release NO (to create rotation) and the amateur comes around the ball or over the top? Not always


Wouldn’t it be great if the PBA Tour went back to presenting a “Tip of the Week”, that added value to the game.

Saying the Pro’s play the inside of the ball and the amateurs play the outside of the ball is opportunistic moment to educate the bowling public. But what does the mean without a visual reference? The comment probably flew over the heads of most viewers, and others like you are left guessing. With all the technology available today, a thirty second infomercial would go a long way towards growing our sport.

The following is my interpretation of the announcer’s comment.
Read at your own risk


Playing the Inside of the Ball.
To understand what this means we must have a reference point.
In my first attachment, I have drawn a vertical line through the center of the ball as my Reference Line. Additionally, I have shown representation of the hand being Inside, Behind and Outside the Reference Line.

As the swing and ball enter the release area (this is defined as the ball position being just slightly behind the calf of the slide leg) while the hand is still positioned on the Inside of the Reference Line.

As the swing and ball near the bottom of the swing the hand moves to a position approximately Behind the Reference Line.

As the swing nears the front of the foot the hand has rotated to a position on the Outside of the Reference Line.

So in a distance of approximately 14-16 inches the hand rotates from a position Inside of the Reference Line to a position Outside of the Reference Line.

This is what the announcer was referring to when he stated the Pro’s played the inside of the ball.
See the Pro release examples below for further reference.

Note: the examples shown all have maintained some degree of wrist cock as they enter the release area. Their high rev rates are a resultant of rapidly uncocking and rotating the hand from Inside to Outside the Reference Line in a short time frame.

Playing the Outside of the Ball.

Again I will utilize the red Reference Line, but have added a green line at the ball’s equator.

Let’s look at two examples of playing the Outside of the ball.

Amateur A
As the swing and ball enter the release area the hand is already on the Outside of our Reference Line. Additionally the fingers are positioned quite a ways above the ball’s Equator Line (green reference line).

As the swing and ball near the bottom of the swing in Slide 2 you can see the broken position of the wrist as indicated by the blue lines. Fingers above the Equator Line & broken wrist position - two power leaks.

As the swing nears the front of the foot the fingers are positioned very near the top of the ball. This is more than likely a high tilt / low rev rate type release.

Amateur B
As the swing and ball enter the release area the hand is already on the Outside of our Reference Line. However the fingers are still positioned very near the ball’s Equator Line and his wrist is in a slightly cupped position.

As the swing and ball near the bottom of the swing in Slide 2, you can see that the wrist and forearm are in a very straight line with the fingers positioned right on the Equator Line.

As the swing nears the front of the foot the fingers are still close to the Equator Line. Amateur B’s rev rate is probably in the 300-350 range.

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:00 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Hi Jim,

One thing I noticed: the difference between Amateur A and everyone else is how his/her fingers look so bent in the ball vs the fingers of the others. Is the cause of having the fingers above the equator, broken wrist and hand on top of the ball, grip pressure and squeezing? Just an observation, could be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:12 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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jmerrell...very good illustrations. i'm trying to keep my hand under the equator of the ball but sometimes have the habit of braking my wrist too much and not able to come back up under the ball at release. sometimes I do and sometimes I don't and what a difference when I do get up under the ball.happy bowling


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:54 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Excellent post by Maestro Merrell.

Jim's post is one for every bowlers scrapbook!


Quote:
Wouldn’t it be great if the PBA Tour went back to presenting a “Tip of the Week”, that added value to the game.

Saying the Pro’s play the inside of the ball and the amateurs play the outside of the ball is opportunistic moment to educate the bowling public. But what does the mean without a visual reference? The comment probably flew over the heads of most viewers, and others like you are left guessing. With all the technology available today, a thirty second infomercial would go a long way towards growing our sport.
--- Jim Merrell

Don't forget the green plus for Jim. That post was wikiworthy!!!

Here is a set that I cobbled from a video of Tommy Jones a number of years ago.
This was done without any special software.
The quality is a bit shoddy. It was an attempt to show the migration of the hand.
Note that I have no idea what Tommy's intent was!

Never lose sight of the fact that footwork, swing path, direction and balance set up and facilitate a quality release and most of all that all pros do not release the ball the same way.


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Last edited by kajmk on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:10 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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turbotwister wrote:
jmerrell...very good illustrations. i'm trying to keep my hand under the equator of the ball but sometimes have the habit of braking my wrist too much and not able to come back up under the ball at release. sometimes I do and sometimes I don't and what a difference when I do get up under the ball.happy bowling



What you can and can't do with the ball on a consistent basis is also dependent on:
footwork, swing path, direction and balance. Also, all of your fingers play a role not just the ones in the gripping holes. You might also be forcing your swing too much, try softer first.
Of course always remember you can't out bowl a bad fit.

You might consider submitting a video.

Folks might consider saying thanks to Jim by clicking that Green Plus. I know you can't spend the points, but when I consider all of the bowlers this guy has helped gratis (including lurkers) I can't believe his rep total is not a lot higher.

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There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:55 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Having these vids at our fingertips is great! You guys do a great job!!!!

I'd like to add something to the intricate differences between amateurs, to real good amateurs, to pro release techniques. Two things remain consistent amongst the top players in the world, their ability to keep the ball close to the ankle at the point of release and the ability to resist the urge to turn the ball early. A pro's release is actually a blur compared to an amateur, a pro's hand turns and completes the release in about a three inch path at the bottom of the swing. This is well before the hand overturns the ball. An amateur, will tend to start "pushing" on the ball at their back hip, causing the swing to hiccup, the hand gets to the side of the ball too soon, elbow flies, all the power was used up too early.

The best of the bast in any type of sport that involves releasing an object, whether it be throwing a football, baseball, or better yet, hitting a baseball, have the uncanny ability to relax all the way to the point of release, then all hell breaks loose. In bowling, maybe the best in the world was Tommy Jones, so early could he get the thumb out, how he could stay up the back side of the ball with just his fingers in the ball, and then rotate! But that greatness took it's toll. Even the best can only whiplash their arm so much before they pay the maximum price.

Not that Merrell needs the accolades, I'm giving him the green!


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:12 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Quote:
TomaHawk wrote - Not that Merrell needs the accolades, I'm giving him the green!


Thanks. I know Jim does not need any praise, his work speaks for itself, however, it's a small token of appreciation that we can offer and I appreciate it.

Quote:
Joni Mitchell wrote -
Nobody stopped to hear him
Though he played so sweet and high
They knew he had never
Been on their T.V.
So they passed his music by
I meant to go over and ask for a song
Maybe put on a harmony
I heard his refrain
As the signal changed
He was playing real good for free


Regarding the Subject, inside ...
Here is an additional visual aide derived from a Turbo advertisement.

Note the hand positions where you can see them.
The caption was added by me, note the coffee stain over the Scroggins boys :oops:

Attachment:
Turbo Poster reduced.jpg


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There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:43 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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is that tape showing the equator line, just below the fingers? i'm not getting a clear picture on my computer.


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:47 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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it is, I looked at with my other laptop. good idea with the tape line. I use a flip video at practice and as soon as I can figure out how to post videos, I will do so. It's not high speed/definition but it gives me an idea on how i'm doing and maybe with the tape, It will show up better.


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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:40 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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Jim's post (#10 this thread) has been added to the wiki

Path Coaching -->
Articles -->
Pro’s play the inside of the ball and the amateurs play the outside of the ball... Added 06/14/2013

Direct link (note pictures are imbedded withing article)
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... f_the_ball

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There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

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 Post subject: Re: pros inside...amateurs outside
 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:33 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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I agree with previous posters, +100 for Jim should be in order.
I am grateful for his feedback from my video, and I am more interested in this site as a direct result. his analysis is very detailed and could easily charge a good to healthy amount for this service.

I wish I could give points a little sooner. How long must I wait to give points again? I feel this system may be a little too restrictive. If one has to wait to give a point to a post more than a few minutes they may just forget and hence not give the point to a given post.


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