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Mo Pinel
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Re: Roll

Post by Mo Pinel »

cgeorg wrote:I am going to digest this for a bit. One further question. Will a ball with more axis tilt than axis rotation hook?
I'll say this just once. If a bowling ball is thrown within the gravitational field of the Earth, IT CANNOT BE THROWN WITH MORE AXIS TILT THAN ROTATION! Axis tilt must be = to or < than axis rotation!
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Re: Roll

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cgeorg wrote:The statement is that the roll phase begins when AR=AT, and that ball motion will be linear in the roll phase. If they are equal at the point of release, the ball should never hook.
That is correct! The helicopter release of some of the oriental bowlers is based on that principal. Using that release can create as much as 110* of initial axis rotation and axis tilt. Their ball never hooks and is NOT supposed to.

I have no problem with a what if, or hypothetical, debate. Please do it on the "Advice & Opinions" forum. I prefer to deal with the reality of ball motion and known facts. If you can generate data and documentation to back up your hypothesis, I welcome the discussion. I've been through this before and it will not happen on "Mo & Friends". I experienced unfounded opinions and conjecture without documentation destroying the intrinsic value of a forum that I had great hopes for. Please, let's not let that happen here. MegaMav, time for you to comment
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Re: Roll

Post by MegaMav »

Mo Pinel wrote: Please do it on the "Advice & Opinions" forum.
MegaMav, time for you to comment
I have moved this thread per your request.
Mo, remember, you have this authority as moderator as well.
Do as you see fit.
Mo & Friends is your show to run.

Let me know if you need additional information how to use the moderator tools.
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Mo Pinel
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Re: Roll

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MegaMav wrote: I have moved this thread per your request.
Mo, remember, you have this authority as moderator as well.
Do as you see fit.
Mo & Friends is your show to run.

Let me know if you need additional information how to use the moderator tools.

It's your website. It's now on this forum. People of bowlingchat now have the ability to comment. That's the way it should be. Please consider purduepaul's and my comments to be based on known data and documentation.
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Re: Roll

Post by MathIsTruth »

In an effort to promote positive discussion, I have created two pictures that illustrate the loss of AR and AT on the overlay created by MattintheHat. The 1st picture will illustrate the effects from a bowler that has an initial AR of 60* and AT of 14* with AT=AR=7* at the second transition. The 2nd picture will illustrate the effects from a bowler that has an initial AR of 75* and AT of 25* with AT=AR=15* at the second transition.

The AR/AT value at the second transition is independent of the entry angle of the ball during the roll phase. When viewed from behind the ball, the PAP will migrate in a straight line until the ball reaches the second transition where AR and AT will be equal. The PAP will then migrate on a great circle (or circumference) of the ball where AR and AT remain equal.
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Re: Roll

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Mo Pinel wrote: I'll say this just once. If a bowling ball is thrown within the gravitational field of the Earth, IT CANNOT BE THROWN WITH MORE AXIS TILT THAN ROTATION! Axis tilt must be = to or < than axis rotation!
I'm trying to get my head around this one. I know you said you would only say this once, but I have a few bowlers in mind who have what I believe is more tilt than rotation, and their balls hook, differently, but definately.
When you say it cannot be thrown, you mean something to do with the system of axes used ? or you mean that a human hand cannot impart such a release ?
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Re: Roll

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robert wrote: I'm trying to get my head around this one. I know you said you would only say this once, but I have a few bowlers in mind who have what I believe is more tilt than rotation, and their balls hook, differently, but definately.
When you say it cannot be thrown, you mean something to do with the system of axes used ? or you mean that a human hand cannot impart such a release ?
THERE ARE NO FAMOUS BOWLERS, OR HAVE THERE EVER BEEN, WHO THROW THE BALL WITH MORE TILT THAN ROTATION!
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Re: Roll

Post by MattCosta7 »

robert wrote: I'm trying to get my head around this one. I know you said you would only say this once, but I have a few bowlers in mind who have what I believe is more tilt than rotation, and their balls hook, differently, but definately.
When you say it cannot be thrown, you mean something to do with the system of axes used ? or you mean that a human hand cannot impart such a release ?
can you provide documentation video? i've been trying to visualize a release that could accomplish this, and I can't...I don't believe many things are impossible, but I am a see it to believe it type.
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Re: Roll

Post by elgavachon »

if a bowler stands left and swings way right, to a person straight behind the lane, it appears to not have any rotation. If that person has a lot of tilt, it can appear to be a good ball with more tilt than rotation. If you stand left of that same person and watch the ball as it is released, you have increased the rotation you are seeing.
P.S. I had to read this several times because it appeared MattCosta was talking to Mo when he said get me a video. I think he was talking to Robert or Cgeorg.
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Re: Roll

Post by kellytehuna »

If you've ever seen a true spinner (there are vids online) the ball doesn't hook at all. When the ball hits the pins, it deflects like crazy. I would assume because the ball never get into the hook phase, let alone, the roll phase. That, and they tend to use lighter gear (like 12lbs or less)
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Re: Roll

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True spinners use 0 degrees of axis rotation.
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Re: Roll

Post by kellytehuna »

90 tilt, or as close to 90 as the human hand will allow. It kind proves what's being stated here. The ball NEVER hooks! My wife was throwing with well over 45° at the start of the season, due to finger injuries. Believe me, the ball NEVER hooked, let alone rolled!
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Re: Roll

Post by cgeorg »

kelly, A ball with exactly 90 degrees of axis tilt necessarily has no axis rotation. Well, rather, the axis rotation of a ball with 90 degrees of axis tilt cannot be measured. It is irrelevant - the ball has no angular velocity perpendicular to its path of travel.

The movement of a ball over a plane surface: http://i45.tinypic.com/2efrsyd.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, the ball may also be spinning about a third axis which is vertical, but such spin ... produces no relative motion between the point on the ball momentarily in contact with the table and the table itself.
I am not disputing that, due to the nature of bowling ball cores, tilt has no affect other than reducing the magnitude of forward or side roll. But, there is your science, stating that a ball with side roll will swerve regardless of tilt.

I have the rest of the chapter as well, if you're interested.
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Re: Roll

Post by MattCosta7 »

elgavachon wrote: P.S. I had to read this several times because it appeared MattCosta was talking to Mo when he said get me a video. I think he was talking to Robert or Cgeorg.
I am asking anyone who has a video of a release where Axis Tilt is definitely greater than axis rotation to post it. I believe Robert mentioned he had a few in mind. If he could place a piece of tape on their axis, and follow through with a video, it would go a long way toward proving this, or defeating it in this thread. I'ld love to see what they do to accomplish this personally.

90* tilt would be an exception, as it is impossible to calculate the axis rotation of a pure spin, since all degrees of rotation would look alike.

I'm sure it's possible, but I would guess very difficult to accomplish. Similarly it's possible to have an axis tilt downwards, although very very very uncommon.

I'ld love to see a tilt > rotation scenario. I have been trying to picture the release required to achieve this, and cannot.
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Re: Roll

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MattCosta7 wrote: can you provide documentation video? i've been trying to visualize a release that could accomplish this, and I can't...I don't believe many things are impossible, but I am a see it to believe it type.
I will try to get a video of one of them.
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Re: Roll

Post by Mo Pinel »

cgeorg wrote:True spinners use 0 degrees of axis rotation.

SORRY! That's not true! Their axis point is on the top of the ball on the circumference line of the ball (between 80* and 110* of both AR and AT). The top dead center of the ball is 90* AR and 90*AT. Look at the axis rotation and tilt template and see what the grid lines say. This is the opinion forum so you can continue to beat this dead horse if you'd like. The Constitution guarantees you the right to have your opinion, but in this case you are incorrect.
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Re: Roll

Post by cgeorg »

If you follow the lines on the chart, every axis rotation meets at the north pole, which is where a true spinner's axis is. So, their AR is 90... and 91, and 89, and 45, and 0.
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Re: Roll

Post by Mo Pinel »

cgeorg wrote:If you follow the lines on the chart, every axis rotation meets at the north pole, which is where a true spinner's axis is. So, their AR is 90... and 91, and 89, and 45, and 0.
If you're one micrometer off the exact dead center, you'll see that the AR and AT are equal for the axis point. I don't know how much experience you have with helicopter bowlers. I have plenty. Most of the best ones actually have more than 90* of AR and AT. And the AR and AT are equal and the ball doesn't hook. I can't be clearer and I have nothing more to add, so I'm signing off the thread now. It's ALL yours.
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