How BAD do you want to win?

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How BAD do you want to win?

Post by MegaMav »

Situation:

Mens only league, 80% of 750 team game.
3 Bowlers on a team.
4 Game set.

Bowler A: Averages 161
Bowler B: Averages 190
Bowler C: Averages 210

Game 1, Bowlers B and C have a good look to start, and bowl well.
Bowler B shoots 205 (+15) and Bowler C shoots 240 (+30).
Bowler A bowls poorly, misses easy spares and is all over the lane.
He finishes with a 96 (-65) and expresses that he doesnt feel like bowling tonight.
The team loses by 10 pins that game.

Bowlers B and C get together and agree that they are going to ask Bowler A to sit the remainder of the night, and eat the 10 pins each remaining game.

Bowler A leaves.

Bowlers B and C go onto win the remaining 3 games plus total on the night. (4-1-0)

Would you want to win badly enough, to ask a teammate to sit, if it gives your team the best chance to win?
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by scotts33 »

NO! Never...you bowl as a team. Bowling used to be a team sport.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by Pinbuster »

I would never ask a teammate to leave for having a bad night.

If they wanted to leave on the their own accord then I would probably try to talk them out of it, but if they insisted then I would let them.

Having extra team members and rotating out the low man the next week is a another subject and I don't have a problem with that.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by CherryVibe »

Well, interesting situation. First and foremost though, the thing that sticks out the most is Bowler A being 160. In my opinion you have to expect him to miss spares. For example, a 10-pin may seem "easy" to you, but for him it's probably harder than just about anything else he could leave. There's a reason he's only 160.

The next thing I see with this is that it's league bowling. Bowler A paid his dues to bowl that week just as you did. So I don't see it as being a place where you can honestly tell him to leave. In my opinion this is not High School Bowling, College Bowling or Bowling for Team USA where it's a privilege to be on the team. This is league bowling in which all of you agreed to bowl together from the start of the year.

As far as the winning part, you'll be a lot better off if you help him out when he's really struggling instead of sending him home. It is 3 games, not one, so what's to say he wouldn't have come back with a 180 or higher?
There's a line between wanting to win, and just being a miserable teammate.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by the_tick444 »

I actually had this same situation arise, and I did ask the teammate to leave. Ours was a 5 man team and it was a unanimous decision by the rest of the team. We had a bowler that after the first game was bowling poorly, but his attitude reflected it. There was throwing of his towel and just generally being a jerk. We asked that he leave and to come back next week with a better attitude.

It wasn't entirely that we wanted to win related, but we knew that we didn't have a chance if he was to stick around. Besides nobody was having a good time and I would rather lose having a good time than trying to win having a poor one.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by lkdelta »

I've had a team mate ready to walk out...and no way I want him to leave... if he does, you know for a fact you only getting 10 less than his average plus now the "engine" is running on 1 less cylinder...
never know how things might change after transitions, plus the teammate that's walking might have been the one that changed the shot for the other team so they can't "open that can of whoop..s"
This week we had #1 guy go 136 first game and still 600 for the night, other team never saw it coming..
no matter what I ask, the worst that can happen is "sorry, can't help", so I ask away...as always THANKS for your time!
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by zanatos1914 »

I understand the situation but you cant force another bowler to leave because they payed just like you.. Nobody is going to have a good game all the time and the most important thing 2 me is the fact the person is trying...
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by militant02 »

the thing that stuck with me is that bowler A stated that he didn't feel like bowling. whether this was due to illness or apathy and his performance reflected his mood it may have been better for the team if he didn't bowl the second and third game.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by kellytehuna »

That's not the point. He's a team mate AND he's paying to play. So, to ask him to leave is a bit much. If there was a LOT at stake, sure. If they're rolling high stakes games, sure. But league play? Come on!
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by MegaMav »

Im digging this up since we're starting a new season.
Im interested to hear any new perspective.
This was a touchy subject a couple of seasons ago.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by crazyjim »

no way I ask him(her) to leave, we all know how quickly these things can change from game to game thats why we have an avg
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by ch_flash »

scotts33 wrote:NO! Never...you bowl as a team. Bowling used to be a team sport.
Two years ago, we had a teammate melt down on position round. We needed to win one point to take first for the half. From the start, he said that " I hate this pair. I never bowl good here." The rest of the team tried to keep the mood as positive as we could. Nothing could change his negative attitude. He said that he wanted to go, but we said just try hard and don't quit. Even with his really bad first and second games, we had a chance for the win. I struck and spared in the tenth frame of the first game only to lose by 5 pins. The second game I got a spare and struck through the tenth to leave a seven for the two pin loss. The third game I did my best to stop the team from kicking his butt. And I was tired of it all in the fourth game. Mentally drained.
We got second for the half and I thought real hard about if I had it to do over again.
The answer is the same as Scott's. We were a team! I decided to never bowl with him again.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by glssmn2001 »

Averages aside, I would never ask a teammate to leave, no matter the circumstances. With that said if he wants to go, I will not stop him and if he is acting a fool I may try to set him straight. It is funny what happens when you tell someone "if you want to go pack it up and go".......... they never seem to leave and often shut up.

When bowling as a team, we win as a team and lose as a team. I do not take the term "team" lightly and never have or will in anything where you are joined together with other peers to work towards a common goal. I expect my peers to try their best and if they feel that is to much than they can or will be told or dismissed.....
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by kajmk »

"Would you want to win badly enough, to ask a teammate to sit, if it gives your team the best chance to win?"
Not if were based on a poor performance and the person was trying.
Everyone has their own 100% at any given time. That's all we can ask.

Is it a trend or an aberration?

Some teams though are blood and guts and have team rules. I used to bowl against a very friendly guy and good bowler. He was always full of playful banter. He helped his team win many a game. What I never knew was that they fined a player each time he talked to a foe. He gave them the season and left the team. He was a very solid player, but a better human being. I just thought of it, but his nickname was Mo (no relative).

"expresses that he doesnt feel like bowling tonight." Have a private 1:1 and explain that it's ok to miss a week, that's why there are subs. It's still a game and is supposed to be fun, but make it his decision.
This door swings both ways. Each teammate should support the other. If the guy does not feel like bowling maybe sitting a few out might be a tonic for him and the team.

Optionally, if he's receptive to help during a practice session, there's an opportunity to help and build team chemistry. Unless there are physical challenges a 160 bowler can be brought up to the 180's with a little bit of work and commitment.

Remember though that life is short and consider what is really important.
"Sport is a shared delusion" Heywood Hale Brown --- "Bowling Life April 1987 --- Chuck Pezzano

Good motto - Also from the same article "You should never let up, you should never let anyone down... If you can't win, lose like a champion because the thing that counts next to winning is trying"


P.S. I have to admit, that in most cases, I was the low man on my team, never the best or next to best.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by sutherngent »

glssmn2001 wrote: When bowling as a team, we win as a team and lose as a team. I do not take the term "team" lightly and never have or will in anything where you are joined together with other peers to work towards a common goal. I expect my peers to try their best and if they feel that is to much than they can or will be told or dismissed.....
There have been many times when I wanted to say screw it and leave, but I always felt I would be letting my team down even more than I was by bowling bad. Last night, about the 6th frame of the 3rd game, I tore my hamstring and was unable to finish. I wasn't bowling that great, but I still felt I let them down. I will continue to feel that way until I'm healed and back bowling. I know its an injury and nothing that I did but thats the way I feel.

I wont say that I have never felt like asking someone to leave...I have. It was the last night and we were in the play offs. Well, 1 guy was bound and determined to get drunk. He did, to the point I had to drive him home after. We lost. I thought about asking him to leave because he was pulling down the team with his I Don't Care attitude. I didn't, but I sure felt like it.

If you can't win, lose like a champion because the thing that counts next to winning is trying.

Thats a great quote, 1 I try and emulate in all I do.
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by glssmn2001 »

We all have had those nights where we wanted to say screw it and leave, but did that deter us from trying our best and keep as positive outlook as necessary ??? Probably not. Now when someone walks in and says that they do not what to be somewhere at it reflects in their effort and their attitude for hours on end, you can be damn sure I am gonna say something. Some people say what they have to say and some do not, I am not gonna dog you for bowling bad but I will dog you for intentionally dogging for your own selfish reasons.............

This is an interesting topic, my only question is, is does the average of the bowlers have any relevance ????
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by Graaille »

The average(s) of the bowlers "shouldn't" make a difference. I've gone into league before after working late on a P.I.T.A. issue, driving an hour home, grabbing the bowling bag - throwing it in the car, and then driving to the lanes w/just enough time to put shoes on before league started - not practice - the actual first frame. So I was stressed from work, stressed from the drive, stressed because I was running late, stressed because I hadn't eaten since before lunch, and overall physically and mentally torqued.

I still wouldn't want to be asked to leave just because my first game might stink on ice, because I know that every frame I'll do my adjusting, and between frames I can relax, stretch, get food, and clear my head. I look at it as my time to unwind and actually enjoy at least one aspect of my life. Granted the leagues I've bowled on were unsanctioned, social leagues w/no real payout at the end other than bragging rights, so money never factored into it. But a bad day bowling is still better than a good day doing a whole lot of other things........
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by Joe Falco »

Fantastic responses! Asking a bowler to leave is a terrible thought and should not be a consideration!
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by MegaMav »

glssmn2001 wrote: This is an interesting topic, my only question is, is does the average of the bowlers have any relevance ????
Just context of how they performed.
Bowler A mailed it in before he even got to the center.
I think it isnt fair to his teammates who are trying really hard to bowl well.
Openly admitting you dont want to be there is an excuse to bowl poorly and he/she is looking for a way out.

Key point, this lack of desire was expressed by the bowler to his teammates.
Unless Wins and Losses really dont mean anything in the league, I cant see why you wouldnt let he/she get what they want, and take the night off.

Something to think about - These responses are not typical of other competitive sports. In major sports, like football, basketball, hockey, etc, if you dont perform and are visibly not in it with a desire to not play, you're bench material. I cant see why in an environment where Wins and Losses matter you would allow a teammate to nullify a +40 by 2 people trying to bowl well with a poor attitude.

Can someone justify that?
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Re: How BAD do you want to win?

Post by kellytehuna »

I think the major difference between the sports you mention and bowling leagues, is the teams are USUALLY managed by a coach, whereas leagues, the teams are mostly self managed. If it were a coach, or manager making that decision, then so be it. But, considering these people are paying their weekly dues and showing up week in, week out, the situation changes.

I'm as competitive as they come. I want to WIN!!! I HATE losing!!! But, I also know the difference between bowling leagues, which, let's face it, are not the MOST competitive environments around, at least not in my experience, and playing a club sport. The environments are different. The level of competition is different. They're completely different beasts and should therefore be handled differently. I have been that guy who has told people that if they don't want to get the job done on a volleyball court, to sit the f**k down and let someone else get it done. I have actually done that.

Like I said, if you were bowling for serious money, then things change, but most leagues don't put up a lot of money as prizes, so again, no big loss.
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