Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
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Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
I have read a lot of posts or comments about Exit Point. I know a lot of people confuse Exit Point with Break Point, but let's focus on Exit Point for this question.
Let's say I have my exit point found for the way I bowl. Now let's say I change zones (just an example).
Does anyone know the math (forget rev rate, rotation, tilt, everything) Just focus on the exit point.
What is the math to make sure I am holding the right line when moving left or right from my original spot.
Let's say I am bowling over 2nd arrow and getting ball to the exit point on the 8 board at 39 feet.
Now if I want to move left to say 25 or 30 and still hit the 8 board at 39 feet. What math can I use to find my target board at the arrows?
I know that everyone is different and every ball will make this different, but let's just keep it simple. How can I find my personal target for any board to hit the same break point. I know that we can probably figure this out with Trig, but I am not a math wiz. I just need help with the math formula and I can calculate for every board myself.
I don't need you to tell me every single board, but just the formula to use and maybe a couple of examples, so I can figure it out myself.
Thank you. I hope this post makes sense. Remember, I am only concerned with how to get to the same board at the exit point no matter where I stand on the lane. The ball I use doesn't matter for my question, as I can adjust the ball used and how I release it once I understand the math to get me lined up correctly.
I hope this made sense as to what I am looking for. This is just for me personally. I'm not trying to figure out every single scenario for every bowler style and type and ball drilling layout. Just the numbers to get from point A to point B.
I appreciate your help in advance.
Let's say I have my exit point found for the way I bowl. Now let's say I change zones (just an example).
Does anyone know the math (forget rev rate, rotation, tilt, everything) Just focus on the exit point.
What is the math to make sure I am holding the right line when moving left or right from my original spot.
Let's say I am bowling over 2nd arrow and getting ball to the exit point on the 8 board at 39 feet.
Now if I want to move left to say 25 or 30 and still hit the 8 board at 39 feet. What math can I use to find my target board at the arrows?
I know that everyone is different and every ball will make this different, but let's just keep it simple. How can I find my personal target for any board to hit the same break point. I know that we can probably figure this out with Trig, but I am not a math wiz. I just need help with the math formula and I can calculate for every board myself.
I don't need you to tell me every single board, but just the formula to use and maybe a couple of examples, so I can figure it out myself.
Thank you. I hope this post makes sense. Remember, I am only concerned with how to get to the same board at the exit point no matter where I stand on the lane. The ball I use doesn't matter for my question, as I can adjust the ball used and how I release it once I understand the math to get me lined up correctly.
I hope this made sense as to what I am looking for. This is just for me personally. I'm not trying to figure out every single scenario for every bowler style and type and ball drilling layout. Just the numbers to get from point A to point B.
I appreciate your help in advance.
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Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
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Last edited by boomer on June 28th, 2021, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
Some tidbits.
Additional variables: Distance between your ankle and the edge of the ball as it passes you,
Your drifting tendencies if any, if you don't know, try to find out.
Consider these points on a line, foul line, near target (e.g. arrow zone) the exit point, a focal point at the pins.
Note that the focal point might be off the pin deck depending on the angle you are playing.
It is that place your ball would go if thrown straight, kind of where you are sending your follow through.
Some reference material from better minds than mine.
How to Get Lined Up in ONE Bowling Shot! Understanding the Hidden Oil Patterns Like the Pros.
What Mike Shady illustrates, I've seen collegiate teams do to determine pattern length when the pattern is unknown.
Hot Off the Press - How to Determine the Length of a Lane Condition
Canuck Coach’s Corner (Bowling This Month)
Exit point vs. breakpoint
Many bowlers have learned the ‘rule of 31’ over the years. Not so much a rule as a guideline, it is a basic mathematical formula to help bowlers figure out how to attack different patterns:
Pattern length in feet – 31 = Breakpoint
Wrong!
This equation is meant to find the exit point which is the board the ball is supposed to be on when it exits the pattern. Once the ball exits the pattern, the breakpoint occurs several feet later. Depending on the ball’s trajectory leaving the pattern, this could be several boards outside (or inside) the exit point.
The formula does help you find the breakpoint in an indirect sense, but it’s important to distinguish the difference here. Two bowlers can be using the same exit point, with different breakpoints because of differences in their physical game or equipment selection. They can also be using the same breakpoint with different exit points for the same reasons.
Canuck corner copied from
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com
*********************************************************************************
Additional variables: Distance between your ankle and the edge of the ball as it passes you,
Your drifting tendencies if any, if you don't know, try to find out.
Consider these points on a line, foul line, near target (e.g. arrow zone) the exit point, a focal point at the pins.
Note that the focal point might be off the pin deck depending on the angle you are playing.
It is that place your ball would go if thrown straight, kind of where you are sending your follow through.
Some reference material from better minds than mine.
How to Get Lined Up in ONE Bowling Shot! Understanding the Hidden Oil Patterns Like the Pros.
What Mike Shady illustrates, I've seen collegiate teams do to determine pattern length when the pattern is unknown.
Hot Off the Press - How to Determine the Length of a Lane Condition
Canuck Coach’s Corner (Bowling This Month)
Exit point vs. breakpoint
Many bowlers have learned the ‘rule of 31’ over the years. Not so much a rule as a guideline, it is a basic mathematical formula to help bowlers figure out how to attack different patterns:
Pattern length in feet – 31 = Breakpoint
Wrong!
This equation is meant to find the exit point which is the board the ball is supposed to be on when it exits the pattern. Once the ball exits the pattern, the breakpoint occurs several feet later. Depending on the ball’s trajectory leaving the pattern, this could be several boards outside (or inside) the exit point.
The formula does help you find the breakpoint in an indirect sense, but it’s important to distinguish the difference here. Two bowlers can be using the same exit point, with different breakpoints because of differences in their physical game or equipment selection. They can also be using the same breakpoint with different exit points for the same reasons.
Canuck corner copied from
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com
*********************************************************************************
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
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Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
Look up JR Raymond “rule of 7” videos. Basically, find where YOU roll the ball straight down 10 (17, 18, 19 etc..). From there, every board moved in gives you 2 boards down lane (so now 10-8 instead of 10-10 with the adjustment).
Stacy
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
A good reference by 44boyd
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
First let me thank Kajmk for his current posts and for his tremendous contributions to this site over the years. All the videos were valid but unfortunately Mike Shady's video contains a conceptual mistake in that he conceptually confuses "exit point" with "breakpoint". Exit point is a conceptual guide on where the ball LEAVES the oil. The rule of 31 is a good functional guideline/starting point. Breakpoint is where the the ball, as it processes toward the pins, goes from a predominate side roll, or axis rotation, into a forward roll mode. They are different conceptually and functionally. Both ideas are conceptual models that one works with in not only hitting the pocket but in carry as well. John's comments on the two concepts were right on. When Sam Baca and Lenny Nicholson (The Phantom) were doing the lanes for the PBA national tour, they came up with charts showing the utilitarian breakpoint. I simplified it to this formula: BP= Distance of oil minus 24, divide by 2, add 2,3,4. five feet past the oil line. This "formula" works with a more flatter pattern of oil on the lane. Under house conditions it works but the bowler must be very good in getting to the exact breakpoint because of the concentration of oil in the middle of the lanes. Mo Pinel, if my memory serves me correctly, came up with the formula of the breakpoint being 3 boards toward the gutter at the furthest point the concentration of oil was applied (e.g. if a high volume of oil was applied 10 to 10 to 42 feet than the breakpoint would be on board 7 at 42 feet. (if my memory has failed, please correct me). So let us look at a couple of examples: oil applied 34 feet: Exit point is board 3 (34-31) and the Breakpoint is 5,6,7 (34-24 =10/2=5 add 2,3,4.=7,8,9 at 39 feet. If the oil is 44 feet than the Exit point is 13 and the Breakpoint is 12, 13. 14 at 49 feet. If the oil is 54 feet the Exit point is 23 (fall back shot) and the Breakpoint point is 17, 18 (again a "fall back shot"). Fall back shots can be seen on older PBA finals from the 60s and 70s. Again all the numbers used in the formulas are conceptual GUIDELINES not absolutes. If the condition has strong friction zones than Mo's observation may have a strong functional prefer To find a the most productive, and repeatable, target lines (especially on non house conditions), the PLAYER must know his/her game and do the proper calculations for the slide or laydown point, the first target, the second target (exit and/or break points) and the third target, the focal point. And there are still folks who believe bowling is not a sport! LOL.
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
The name "Guru" is well deserved.
Thanks Gary for a most informative explanation of several systems.
Your post is definitely Wiki worthy.
Thanks Gary for a most informative explanation of several systems.
Your post is definitely Wiki worthy.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
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Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
- If the oil is 54 feet the Exit point is 23 (fall back shot) and the Breakpoint point is 17, 18 (again a "fall back shot").
I can't see how this shot is possible, exiting the oil at 23 board at 54' and getting to 17, 18 board in the 6' between the end of the oil and the head pin?
I can't see how this shot is possible, exiting the oil at 23 board at 54' and getting to 17, 18 board in the 6' between the end of the oil and the head pin?
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
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BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
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Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
First, my samples were to illustrate the mathematics. The "fall back" shot is not easy but can be done as it was not uncommon in the late 60s and early seventies. You Tube, I am sure has videos of PBA finals that the players used the "fall back shot". Possible, yes. Difficult, yes. Common with today's patterns? No.
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
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Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
Hi Gary, I understand what the fall back shot is, I'm just thinking about the math of the angle the ball is on to get from 23 board at 54' to 17-18 board by or before 60'. The ball is covering 5 boards left to right in less than 6 feet and then changing direction enough to take out the 5 pin. But going backwards from there, the ball has to be launched from the left gutter at 32' to create this angle?
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BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
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BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
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Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
Understood. I recall seeing and hearing of playing a fallback shot, even on black and white tvguruU2 wrote: ↑July 6th, 2021, 2:42 am First, my samples were to illustrate the mathematics. The "fall back" shot is not easy but can be done as it was not uncommon in the late 60s and early seventies. You Tube, I am sure has videos of PBA finals that the players used the "fall back shot". Possible, yes. Difficult, yes. Common with today's patterns? No.
Mo had made a post or two, illustrating his system.
Not a lot of ball movement or scoring. Recognize the reality and that your opponent has to cope too.
Of course patterns and conditions have other attributes.
As Gary said, these are guidelines not rules. So many variables.
Patton said battle plans were often thrown out after the first shots were fired.
PBA Badger pattern was longest I could find, 52 feet. There are a few YouTube's of PBA matches on Badger.
Imagine if it were flat gutter to gutter ...
I remember Richie Allen saying the toughest pattern was the US open as it was flat and long, like bowling on top of an A-Frame roof
I would surmise that there is no optimum launch angle per se. Just an idea of when the ball will grab for you, a sense of how much you can get it to move, and hit the pocket consistently hopefully leaving makeable spares?????
Or a slow boat to China straight ball from the edge of the lane ??
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
This is one of the posts where "some" of Mo's "system" was transcribed to. There are others, this is just one I found using the forums search engine.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9925&p=77533&hilit=Rule#p77522
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9925&p=77533&hilit=Rule#p77522
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
Some germane discussion and some comments from Mo ...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9925
There are no doubt some better discussions on the forum.
Always remember when all else fails.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9925
There are no doubt some better discussions on the forum.
Always remember when all else fails.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Finding path to Exit Point - When moving
As others have said, mathematical equations are fine, but they are not set in stone. Some people arc the ball to their target, others can go fairly straight from the foul to the target. Your moves would be based on how you personally roll the ball.YourFreedom wrote: ↑June 26th, 2021, 8:39 pmI have read a lot of posts or comments about Exit Point. I know a lot of people confuse Exit Point with Break Point, but let's focus on Exit Point for this question.
Let's say I have my exit point found for the way I bowl. Now let's say I change zones (just an example).
Remember, I am only concerned with how to get to the same board at the exit point no matter where I stand on the lane. The ball I use doesn't matter for my question, as I can adjust the ball used and how I release it once I understand the math to get me lined up correctly.
Lane play changes as you move from zone to zone, assuming you mean, moving left to right. The line a person plays at the start of competition will, more times than not, be entirely different from the 1st game to the 3rd game. This is where visualizing the shot becomes important, creating a visual image in your mind of how the ball will travel down the lane and ultimately get to the pocket.
Visualization. Bowling is very similar to shooting a basketball, it should be somewhat intuitive. It's called: "Line in your mind". The adjustments on the lane are similar to shooting a basketball from distances near or far from the hoop. A person would throw a bowling ball softer, harder, less arc, or more arc depending on the angle required to get the ball to the pocket effectively. It takes an open mind to make those sort of adjustments effectively.
That's just the mental side of it. There are a huge amount of factors which can cause the oil patterns to break down differently from night to night, lane to lane. I'm afraid, even Einstein would have to come up with a different formula for each and every shot.