Surface adjustment advice

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GAFrank
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Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Hello, I have been looking for my best house shot surface. I have recently gone with a 500-2000 skip grit
using CTD 6" pads wet. This reaction has shown a long wide arc with fairly decent continuation as long as I
release it correctly. However, I feel it will be more consistent and predictable if I can go straighter with a little more
back end finish. This is based on our house pattern which is 41 feet and relatively dry on the outside.

So, I am thinking the next step will be 3000 grit before going any higher and throw straighter. Would you
recommend adding the 3000 on top of what I already have on the ball, or should I back down to 500 and
then skip to the 3000?

Thanks,
Frank
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by duvallite »

I'd definitely try hitting it with a light 3000 or 4000 on top of the current surface (using generous water) for a little more backend reaction while being cleaner up front. For me, 500-3000 on my hybrids does what you're looking for on a typical THS. For solids, I like to use 500-2000 then hit it with light 5000 using lots of water for a shined look. Our lanes are light to medium oil. YMMV.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Thanks, I will try that. Our house is medium oil, and I'm thinking right now that could make a difference @ 3000 light & wet. Just wanted some input as to the idea of starting over @ 500. I'm somewhat of a tweener, and always seem to get the best reaction playing outside. Appreciate your input.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by TheJesus »

I think it will be a trial and error thing. You could also try 1000-3000, or 1000-4000 and see how it goes. Good luck !
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by 44boyd »

What ball are you using? Unless you’ve tried low flare layouts, most balls aren’t going to be consistent in a wet dry scenario without moving into the oil.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Sorry- late response. Using a Halo Pearl.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Also, any Rotogrip owners: there are at least 2-3 recommendations as to factory resurfacing for this ball. Old Rotogrip instructions are different from current Storm instructions. Other sites have even more variations. Very confusing.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by 44boyd »

How often are you resurfacing? Every 3, 6 games? I’d let it lane shine and see if you like that reaction, then freshen up when it goes too long
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

I've only done a complete resurface once in a little over a year. De-oiled three times.
As to sanding pads, as I understand it, Abralon actually scans at quite a bit higher than the
printed grit. I have recently switched to CTD pads and I really like them. Current surface
is CTD 500/1000/2000/4000 plus Storm Step Two, which is what I received from a Storm rep,
please see attachment. Rotogrip specs are different, also attached. Other older Storm
instructions are also attached, hence the confusion. I guess I need to experiment, which
is actually a lot of fun for me. Anyone have comments, please let me know. I have tried
a couple of other surface combos as well, nothing too crazy. My ball is from 2019, so if
anyone has more recent instructions for surface, please let me know.

Thanks!
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GAFrank
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Stacy, as to how often, I do touch up a bit here and there, not total re-surfacing.
Just added to answer your question.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by 44boyd »

So without specific details of what you’re doing, I’d assume your surface is more in the range of 4500+ of lane shine. With the Halo core being more rollier, straight through the fronts with bigger backend is going to be more speed related. It’s a stand left, throw right type ball. If you want it to read earlier to smooth out the jump on the backend, refreshing surface every 3-6 games is going to be the required maintenance.

As far as total resurfacing to OOB, hard to duplicate and depends on new pads and how much pressure you apply. So develop your own process that you can repeat. Skip a grit is going to be more aggressive than the traditional 500/1000/2000 way. I like to bring pads to lane and just make by adjustments to get the desired reaction instead of fixating on numbers
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Thanks for the advice. I am 70 years old, but in excellent health and stronger & better shape than most 30-40 somethings. Bodybuilder my whole life, but I still seem to be most comfortable avoiding stand left/throw right, the ball rarely seems to come back to the pocket. I'm a beginner at this- 175 average right now. Our house shot is pretty dry on outsides, 41 foot pattern, and that seems to match up for me and going up the outside is the advice I get from another older guy (225 average) that works at the alley. I have not measured, but I would guess I'm 250-300 max revs & 13-14 mph strike ball & 15+ with plastic spare ball going straight. I think I may try skip grit, I am just not getting much back end & leaving tons of 10 pins. With skip grit, are you recommending polish on top? The Halo Pearl was recommended by the pro at our alley, based on his observations of my bowling and knowing I used to throw a Columbia 300 Wrath. As an aside, I am convinced I need work on my release. Maybe that will help me get more versatile with stand left/throw right idea. Also wondering if I should try some polish instead of the Storm Step Two, or on top of it? Frank
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by 44boyd »

Not saying this is your case, but some PSOs tend to push the latest and greatest on their customers.

I follow the Radical bowling theories by Mo even though I throw Roto Grip and Radical mostly, he stated polish is for selling balls as it makes them prettier. So I’d dial in your maintenance routine adjusted with the 500/2000 to see if that helps. Understanding what type of 10 pins is important too, flat 10s mean the ball is dead on arrival (burning up too quickly and just rolls out) and you need to ball down to a weaker ball so it stores energy for the back end.

The new Radical “Spy” might be something that interests you with your speed and preference of line. Spare ball cover with big asymmetrical core that’ll let you stay right

Stacy
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Thanks, I'll watch the 6 pin a little closer to determine type of 10's. And thanks for your other suggestions as well.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by Glenn »

GAFrank,

Resurfacing bowling balls will drive you crazy if you let it (personal experience). Everybody is going to give you a different opinion, you will likely try them all, and still not come to a satisfactory conclusion for yourself.

The Storm guys will all give you a little different twist on resurfacing from their experiences. Some of the guys prefer the Roto Grip 2011 Guide. The one Chad suggested that made the most sense to me is from the Storm Resurfacing Guide 2012 where you take the sanding steps from the Surface Factory side and apply the timings from the Ball Spinner side.

You don't say if you sand by hand or with a spinner, or what layout you have on the ball. I have noticed that different balls will take to sanding differently (sometimes the tech sheets will mention that fact). I have one ball ("soft" cover) that goes to 1000-grit quickly and another ball ("hard" cover) that hovers around 4500-grit using the same new pad. You may think you know what surface you have on the ball, but testing it on the lanes is the only way to know what you have without a surface scanner.

Stacy makes a good point about let it lane shine and see if you like that reaction, then freshen up when it goes too long. Phil Cardinale makes a similar case in recent YouTube videos about recreating the factory finish and why you should NOT adjust the surface. Too often, you will find a surface for a particular ball and bowl a 600 or 700 series only to find it is DOA the next week on a different pair with different skill level bowlers. And, adjusting it during practice may do you well in the first game only to see it flop as the lanes transition in a next two games in spite of lane and release adjustments, so you go to a different ball.

I am coming to the conclusion that for me to be successful, I need to find the right ball for the hall that matches up to my particular bowling style at a lane shine surface (probably about 5000-grit). Of course, I am still searching for that ball.... For me, the ball would be high RG, medium DIFF, SYM, Pearl, and I had one that cracked during the COVID lock-down that I haven't replaced, yet.

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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by TheJesus »

Lane shine (according to mr.Hickland) is around 4700-4800.
It is true that without a laser scanner people are way off on what they think their ball has. I witness that when i started using my laser scanner for experiments. You can check some of them on my channel. I just uploaded a relevant one today. --->
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw :mrgreen:
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by Glenn »

Sorry for the long post.

I do not know the context in which Ron made the 4700-4800 statement. However, there are two YouTube videos created by Ron that address this subject.

In the first video (for the USBC), Ron conducts a test of the affect the ball return mechanism (it never touched the lanes) has on a bowling ball with a new 2458-Grit surface. After 13 returns (equivalent of one game), the bowling ball measured 4306-grit.

In the second video, Ron conducts a test of bowling ball surface changes when league bowling with a Quantum. The new, fresh ball measured 3722-grit, after the 1st game it was 4505-grit, after the 2nd game it was 4772, and after the 3rd game it was 5022-grit. Keep the 5000-grit value in mind.

I remember Mo talking about how the lane composition affects how the ball surface is changed with wooden lanes being more abrasive than synthetic, and don't forget the impact of dirty lane conditions.

Ron has several videos that talk about the 5000-grit surface, and how it is the most consistent surface for your bowling ball in that it holds up better (longer?) when bowling games – shiny surfaces tend to do that. The 5000-grit surface should let your ball go longer with a stronger back-end. So, when do you use 5000? Suggest using it on lighter volume patterns; for opening up the lanes; for angular balls (like that Halo...); and slow ball speed or low rev rates.

In MY bowling environment, I get 5000-grit in several ways (depending on my technique):

1. Sanding with the CTD 3000/P5000D combo.
2. Motiv 500/1000/2000/Polishx2
3. Radical 500/1000/Compound
4. Radical 500/1000/Polish
5. Roto Grip 500/1000/2000/Polish (similar to Motiv)
6. Roto Grip 500/1000/Step #2
7. Pyramid: ASYM 500/2000/Polish and SYM 500/1000/Polish
8. Bowling center lane shine.

In the bowling center where I bowl leagues, the lanes are HPL 9000 overlay lanes (syn and wood). After about 3 games plus practice, your bowling ball will be approaching the 5000-grit surface. The house pattern is dry here (I am guessing <24 ml total). The successful bowlers here are using higher performance pearl balls at lane shine (around 5000-grit). The most successful bowlers here are high rev bowlers who play deeper (slide foot between 30-35 board and throw it out to around the 7-9 board at the right-most tracer).

For GAFrank, a solution might be the CTD 3000/P5000D combo with a touch-up of P5000D when needed.

YMMV
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Thanks to all for the help. Here is what I am using right now:

I am using the spinner attachment for a drill @ max 200 rpm. Seems to work well right now, I don't have a spinner yet.

I have our house pattern attached, it idoes not really seem to get wet/dry per se, and they oil prior to all leagues. But definitely more
dry on the outside, and I bowl with a bunch of people that are all over the place with plastic balls, back up balls, you name it
for a bunch of seniors. I do not know my layout numbers, I can probably guess, but I will find out & I think that will be a
helpful item to know about. Anyway the ball is pin up. Could be that this is just the wrong ball for me, I can accept that.

Lanes are synthetic, but not sure if they are pure synthetic or an overlay situation. I probably need a good coach, and I was
thinking to go down to Kegel in Florida for some coaching. If anyone has input on that, I would appreciate it. I know that
at my age I will never be a tournament killer, but I feel that I am progressing and could carry a 200 + average with the
right equipment and some training.
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by GAFrank »

Here it is attached
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Re: Surface adjustment advice

Post by TomaHawk »

GAFrank wrote: June 8th, 2021, 1:26 am Here it is attached
Professional coaching would probably be very beneficial. With the proper instruction you'll not only learn about techniques to improve your physical game, but also how to read and adjust on the lanes.

As for ball surface, it's been mentioned, there are a lot of different choices. Mostly, it depends on a person's game and where they feel most comfortable playing the lane. But, trying to predetermine what grit you should have on the ball before even throwing one shot? Being in this business, one thing I can say, ya never know what the lane man might be thinking that particular day.
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