Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

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Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by MegaMav »

I tried this topic on Facebook yesterday and it got a lot of response, even from a ball rep active that day.
Seems bowlers not associated with ball companies agreed and those with ball companies disagreed, vehemently, for good reason.
It's their business, product, even position they're defending. Very subjective.
I was even called naïve by a professional for posting such a thing.

I think ball reps affect the outcome of competition, one way or the other. Good and bad.
They're feeding information to players solicited and unsolicited. Too much meddling with the outcome, in my opinion.

ATP Tennis doesnt allow coaching during competition, see Serena Williams and Patrick Mouratoglou US Open 2018.

What would happen if ball reps were kept out of competition in major events like the US Open, Tournament of Champions and USBC Masters?
Consult with ball reps between squads and rounds only. Game plan, go to the truck, adjust, drill stuff then.
I think it would add an interesting new twist to put all that goes into bowling on the bowler. No help mentally, physically or with ball motion.

Know the lane, know yourself, know your equipment. I think it elevates bowlers and bowling by making bowlers do more between the ears.

Thoughts?
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by 44boyd »

I agree 100% with this. I understand the pushback from reps as your messing with their occupation. It would give BIG bowling the same playing field vs Storm as you don’t have a staffer on every lane to pass on information for a teammate following you. Have the reps give notes after the block.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TomaHawk »

The good and bad of information, good if you have access to it, bad if you don't. Bowling is a tactical game just like driving a race car, hitting a baseball, playing a golf shot, etc. We see baseball hitters communicating with each other all the time, relaying information about how the pitcher is placing his pitches. That type of information allows the hitter to have, at least, a little bit of an idea about what to expect. Analysis of a lane condition from another perspective is very similar.

Anyone can bowl, it's just that better bowlers have access to more information. They have probably earned it too. Now, if the tournament is open only to "true amateurs" that would be a different story.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by 44boyd »

TomaHawk wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 4:53 pm The good and bad of information, good if you have access to it, bad if you don't. Bowling is a tactical game just like driving a race car, hitting a baseball, playing a golf shot, etc. We see baseball hitters communicating with each other all the time, relaying information about how the pitcher is placing his pitches. That type of information allows the hitter to have, at least, a little bit of an idea about what to expect. Analysis of a lane condition from another perspective is very similar.

Anyone can bowl, it's just that better bowlers have access to more information. They have probably earned it too. Now, if the tournament is open only to "true amateurs" that would be a different story.
Those sports also have a limit of rosters, spotters, pit crew, coaching staff etc.. bowling doesn’t have an equalizer to make it the same for each “team”.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TomaHawk »

44boyd wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:08 pm Those sports also have a limit of rosters, spotters, pit crew, coaching staff etc.. bowling doesn’t have an equalizer to make it the same for each “team”.
Yes, that is true. Bowling at high level presents it's own, very unique set of situations. Whereas other sports are played on one playing surface, bowling is played on multiple conditions.

If outside information / influence is considered an issue, staff members, PBA, Team USA, or Team "anything", should not be allowed to participate in the competition.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by MegaMav »

Follow up question: If someone external to the competition giving information is the difference between winning or losing, making the cut or missing, cashing a check or not, are the results of competition a true reflection of those competing?

In my opinion "they still gotta make shots" argument is a cop out. Saw that on Facebook.
When equipment is king to matching up to the condition, making shots doesnt guarantee success.
You gotta match up to get the back row to carry. The quicker the adjustment happens the better chance of a tournament changing result.
Ball reps have that kind of influence.

Ball reps are responsible for the equipment side, as they should be.
Where I have a problem with it is the influence to make decisions for the bowler during competition. Where to play, what ball to use, advice on next pairs on the skip schedule, etc.
I got a real soft answer on facebook from a ball rep.
Why is this ever a topic ???
Every player stands on there own and we just are there to bounce ideas of of
Every player has access to help if they would like it
Just never understand how this comes up when every sport has coaches or strategists
We should do everything we can to advance the sport
I've seen and heard conversations on TV and qualifying by ball reps, as I'm sure you have too. A lot of influence going on.
I've met some high level bowlers that cannot make decisions on the lanes without others making them for him/her.

To me, bowlers should be responsible for what goes on when the lights come on.
This situation is akin to a football Quarterback asking a coach during a play where he should throw the ball.

Opinion: This is a problem and a weakness from dependence on others and makes bowlers and bowling weaker.
Removing ball reps from the in-building competition doesn't diminish their value, but puts more of a premium on the well-rounded bowler and the pro-active game planning aspect of our sport.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TomaHawk »

A coach is only there to provide information. If we were to think in terms of a quarterback making a decision, it would be partially based on the information he received from the coach. The coach would say something like, the corner back is playing a little loose, the safety is leaving the area, etc. That information could have a couple of effects on the quarterback, instilling confidence is probably the most critical.

The same could be said of a ball rep or coach in bowling. They do not throw the ball, only instill a thought process that otherwise may be overlooked by the bowler.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by 44boyd »

Think there was no reps available today, or at least the way they made it sound
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by boomer »

TomaHawk wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 9:01 pm A coach is only there to provide information. If we were to think in terms of a quarterback making a decision, it would be partially based on the information he received from the coach. The coach would say something like, the corner back is playing a little loose, the safety is leaving the area, etc. That information could have a couple of effects on the quarterback, instilling confidence is probably the most critical.

The same could be said of a ball rep or coach in bowling. They do not throw the ball, only instill a thought process that otherwise may be overlooked by the bowler.
Not sure what game you're watching. . .

Offensive Coordinator (coach, and often the head coach) calls the plays, which include certain options based upon reads that the QB, WR, RB and even linemen make. But the play is the play.

in SOME cases with certain QBs (Brady, Wilson, Mahomes, Rogers, Brees and a very few others) they are often given a choice of 2-3 plays and they can call what they want in the huddle or at the line and the Center will call a corresponding blocking scheme based upon that. This was pioneered by Peyton Manning, but is not the norm by any means.

An example of an option is if the box (area at the line) is loaded with more than 5 defenders, a built-in quick pass option will be signaled. If only 3-4 defenders are in the box, a built-in run option will be called. There's a whole language to this, but if the QB strays from the play called, and his name is NOT Rodgers or Brady or Brees, they're going to have to justify it on the sideline. Even Wilson and Mahomes stick with the play - they just improvise after the snap.


I would PREFER to see the plays called on the field, honestly. Old school - ain't nothing like the old school.

I would also prefer to see ball reps seen but not heard. Just as we can't change the surface after the first ball is thrown, reps should be on the sidelines after the first ball is thrown, a la tennis.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by JimH »

As a Pro Shop Operator I have attended several seminars given by ball companies. They are very open about bringing a large truck full of bowling balls and drilling equipment to tournaments to provide their bowlers with the ball most suitable for the conditions.

I think this slould be stopped as this is not available to all competitors in a tournament.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TomaHawk »

boomer wrote: January 25th, 2021, 4:04 pm Not sure what game you're watching. . .

Offensive Coordinator (coach, and often the head coach) calls the plays, which include certain options based upon reads that the QB, WR, RB and even linemen make. But the play is the play.

in SOME cases with certain QBs (Brady, Wilson, Mahomes, Rogers, Brees and a very few others) they are often given a choice of 2-3 plays and they can call what they want in the huddle or at the line and the Center will call a corresponding blocking scheme based upon that. This was pioneered by Peyton Manning, but is not the norm by any means.

An example of an option is if the box (area at the line) is loaded with more than 5 defenders, a built-in quick pass option will be signaled. If only 3-4 defenders are in the box, a built-in run option will be called. There's a whole language to this, but if the QB strays from the play called, and his name is NOT Rodgers or Brady or Brees, they're going to have to justify it on the sideline. Even Wilson and Mahomes stick with the play - they just improvise after the snap.


I would PREFER to see the plays called on the field, honestly. Old school - ain't nothing like the old school.

I would also prefer to see ball reps seen but not heard. Just as we can't change the surface after the first ball is thrown, reps should be on the sidelines after the first ball is thrown, a la tennis.
Finally, someone who knows a little bit about football! (I was a marginal quarterback)

A coach is a coach, he draws up the play. From the beginning to the end of the game, it is a chess match. The plays will be modified according to how the other team is responding, both offensively and defensively. Either way, they go to the line with a preconceived notion of what they're going to do. The best players know when to let loose of the play and modify it. Example, a pass route is designed to be thrown down the middle of the field, the defender positions himself to take that area of the field away from the receiver. The quarterback and receiver, on the fly must adapt to that defensive maneuver. That's the difference between Brady and all the others.

The same could be said of bowlers. Let's face it, there are only so many "true" professional bowlers on tour. Those bowlers are like Brady, talented, can do just about anything to a bowling ball. Give them just a tad of information, that information makes them 10% better than the other guy...and...they have the capability to utilize it to their advantage.

In amateur competition, as Jim suggested, reps should not be allowed to engage with the bowlers. That presents a tremendous advantage, well above 10%. At the PBA level, that's a different beast. You're out there competing against people who have a notion that they're the best in the world. If a person is so noted, he would have reps too. That's okay, they're professionals. Bottom line, amateurs are amateurs, they should not have the privilege of professional counseling.

Just for the record, today's football athletes are given a much longer leash in terms of what is expected from them. They are so much stronger and more athletic, even coaches have to be in awe watching the athletic feats some of the these guys have exhibited. Old school, if I would have ever shoveled a forward pass like Mahomes, that would have been the last play I ever made as quarterback. (In my case, that would have been a good thing...lol)
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by Pinbuster »

I agree in that the ball reps, scouts, coaches, etc should be banned during competition. UNLESS that information is available to all competitors.

Yes there are professional sports/competitions where coaching, plays, etc are relayed to the players on the field. But all competitors have pretty much the same support staff helping their side. To me that is why the Patriots spygate was an issue was because they were getting/gaining information that was not available to the other team(s). The same with Houston stealing pitching signs and relaying that to the batter.

An accomplished professional bowler should have knowledge of their arsenal and be able to pick the correct ball based on feedback they get from throwing the ball on the lane. And be able to adjust their lane play depending on what they see as well.

I wish equipment was not as large a factor in bowling as it is and was more bowler physical and mental performance based.

I think the professional sport would be better served by having a handful of standard balls and drills that had to be used but that is a fantasy world and there is too much money pushing things to specialization.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TheJesus »

I agree with you as well. I prefer to know that the player accomplished more by himself, than with outside team help.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by EricHartwell »

It is a part of sports.
There is always someone in the corner.

I can think of only one sport where you are out there by yourself and that is Tennis. There is no coach/player interaction during competition. There is no arguing that Tennis is a sport. To be good in that arena you must be in top shape.

Otherwise the activity is a just a competition not actually a sport, ex. Billiards, Chess, World series of poker, Darts. Give me some time and I think I could come up with many more.

So my question is: Do you want to see Bowling as a Sport or just a competition?
More corporate involvement should bring in more money to the game.
For Bowling to thrive you need that carrot, the brass ring, something to reach for.

I will always compare golf to bowling. I am one of those consumers that utilize both golf and bowling for recreation.
The professional Golfer has a team of people behind him. Bowlers should be able to benefit from a similar team supporting them.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TomaHawk »

People keep trying to compare bowling to other sporting activities when honestly, there is nothing else quite like it except for (maybe?) curling, or possibly billiards.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TheJesus »

I posted here a few hours a go, now it's gone. Anyway... Short version :

1.Billiards, Chess, Darts are all official sports.
2.We are not talking about eliminating reps, just saying that maybe its better if they do all the strategy and homework with the players before play.
3.Part of bowling, is to read the lanes, and choosing the right equipment. Each player, especially a pro, should do that by himself WHILE PLAYING. Not having 1 or 2 EXTRA pairs of eyes that SPECIFICALLY watch for that.
4.People who don't have reps are not playing under equal terms if the reps input is so active DURING play.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TomaHawk »

TheJesus wrote: February 1st, 2021, 2:38 pm I posted here a few hours a go, now it's gone. Anyway... Short version :

1.Billiards, Chess, Darts are all official sports.
2.We are not talking about eliminating reps, just saying that maybe its better if they do all the strategy and homework with the players before play.
3.Part of bowling, is to read the lanes, and choosing the right equipment. Each player, especially a pro, should do that by himself WHILE PLAYING. Not having 1 or 2 EXTRA pairs of eyes that SPECIFICALLY watch for that.
4.People who don't have reps are not playing under equal terms if the reps input is so active DURING play.
Are you implying, reps should not be used on all levels? The PBA tried that once. The end result, an awful product.
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TheJesus »

TomaHawk wrote: February 1st, 2021, 5:00 pm Are you implying, reps should not be used on all levels? The PBA tried that once. The end result, an awful product.
I think i covered that with number 2 on my list. But if you mean something else, please rephrase. :)
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

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TheJesus wrote: February 1st, 2021, 7:43 pm I think i covered that with number 2 on my list. But if you mean something else, please rephrase. :)
Presumably, reps have done the homework. That's why they are there. To me, a reps input should be all or nothing. What would you like to see them do, or not do?
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Re: Opinion: Keep ball reps out of active competition

Post by TheJesus »

TomaHawk wrote: February 1st, 2021, 8:21 pm Presumably, reps have done the homework. That's why they are there. To me, a reps input should be all or nothing. What would you like to see them do, or not do?
The point i was making was that maybe they should talk with the players about strategy BEFORE the games and then let the players do their thing. For the reasons i mentioned.
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