Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

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Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » December 26th, 2019, 6:20 am

I took video trying to play 4th arrow and I thought by holding my hand in the same postion the entire length of the swing, i would end up in the proper place and I didn't. I was always on the outside of the ball.

I watched this video: Look around 1:48 min mark



I haven't been doing that, that says to bascially turn the ball over on the right side with the pushaway. I think this is the whole deal I was missing. I am going to try that tomorrow and see what happens. It feels weird when you do that though but I think you do end up in the proper place. I think I have done this on accident a few times and thought it was wrong.

Look at 1:09 mark on this next video. The guy is dropping the ball to the inside on the pushaway and his hand is on the outside of the ball the entire time if I am correct.

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » December 26th, 2019, 1:11 pm

Or you could watch any instructional video from the 70s and 80s that you dismissed (Holman, Earl Weaver, and Don Johnson etc..) and watch where they say you lead the down swing with the inside elbow and ring finger. Maybe if Brad and Kyle do a video about it you’ll finally listen. I know it’s hard to understand, but nothing besides 2 hands is revolutionary in the game. Every teaching point from USBC, Kegel, and JR etc.. can be found in the pros games in the 80s and 90s. Pete Weber always has the open palm, Bob Vespi and Jimmy Keeth showed the power of bending the elbow and cup/uncup of the wrist. It just doesn’t look as impressive compared to today what they were doing with urethane and early reactive resin vs today’s technology.
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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by bowl1820 » December 26th, 2019, 4:11 pm

krava wrote:
December 26th, 2019, 6:20 am
I took video trying to play 4th arrow and I thought by holding my hand in the same postion the entire length of the swing, i would end up in the proper place and I didn't. I was always on the outside of the ball.
"I took video trying to play 4th arrow" It would have been more helpful if you had posted that video instead of those two. Then everyone could give you better advice on what you may need to correct and how.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » December 27th, 2019, 5:53 am

bowl1820 I wasn't going to post these because I am disgusted with them. But you asked for it

1st of all i was real upset when I did the 1st practice because i called and they said it was ok to come in and I had to wait for an hour and a half to get a lane and also didn't really want to play the 4th arrow. So In the video I get frustrated etc. But by doing this I saw that I wasn't getting my fingers inside the ball like I thought.


4th arrow practice



I forget what I was trying to do in this video, I think I decided on well let me try 3rd arrow but I don't remember what it was I think maybe 4th arrow and missing bad right again.




This is today 12/26 after watching the above 2 days of video and seeing my fingers are not inside the ball at all and trying to fix. The problem I see is that I have a "god awful backswing" and lose everything there. I think when I move forward, my shoulder moves causing me to pull on the ball and making my hand come over the side of it. I have watched videos and the pros I watch have their arm downswing come close to their body and not at 90 degrees. my swing is 90 degrees straight down and needs to be "pulled in". I am going to try to fix this but not thnking or worring about anything else. I will only focus on where my elbow is and make sure my thumb is pointing to the right wall until it reaches close to my right ankle. Today I only focused on pushing the ball to the right at the pushaway which I see is an improvement but then once it goes into the top of the swing, I lose it all. I should have tried to stay behind the ball the entire way and only tried to grab it and stay behind it at the very end which I didn't do a good job at all with. If I had a coach behind me I might be able to get this fixed. If I fail 2 more times I will see if the dallas coach guy can help me fix this. I thought I actually did it a few times in the below videos but probably didn't. I got alot more ball reaction and hook though somehow. I know I do it wrong when I feel my elbow up too high. Its hard trying to focus on too many things such as watch the timing, don't force the ball ..... this 1 item might need to be "zeroed in on" by itself. This is a major problem that has got to be fixed and doesn't look like it can be all that hard. I mean how hard can it be to keep your elbow in and thumb pointed to the right. The hard part is all these other things interfer with it at the same time and concentration is lost.

The question is how the hell am i averaging so high throwing the ball so bad. That is pitiful. ball is like 7 boards right of the foot, it is all bascially that downwing is doing me in.

1st game today trying to fix


2nd game


3rd game I changed balls to see if I could get a better reaction

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » December 27th, 2019, 6:21 am




maybe let the ball drop a few inches or something

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » December 27th, 2019, 6:28 am

You need surface on the balls if you’re going to play inside. They need to slow down so they turn the corner.

Try the figure 8 drill so you can learn to tuck your arm.

You score high because you play in the friction of the track and have enough speed to keep it from going high.

You have a whole coaching thread dedicated to you, follow Jim’s plan because he’s already gave you the way to “fix it”.

7 inches from leg isn’t bad considering your size.
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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by MegaMav » December 27th, 2019, 1:12 pm

Too much muscle still.
It should feel like you're doing nothing to the ball.
Your body is nothing more than the vehicle to get the ball to the foul line at a consistent speed. Your arm is the aiming device to deliver the ball where your eyes can see the ball reaction. This is bowling. When the arm starts dictating speed, you're done, it's the legs' job, not the arm's.

A weak release, you are around it and over the top of it and you cuff the ball, meaning you finish across your face instead of inline with your shoulder.
Too. Much. Effort. Keep your hand still and JUST RELAX!
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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by kajmk » December 27th, 2019, 4:13 pm

krava, I know you've worked with some Coachs. You've traveled to see Susie Minshew, perhaps others. As has been mentioned before, until you believe and commit, you will be like a hamster on one of those wheels, working hard but getting nowhere. Billy Welu used the phrase "Trust is a must or your game is a bust".

Instant Feedback would be constructive, for that you need an informed and unbiased observer, if not a coach, a dependable friend. Use Jim's lessons, print them with all the graphics, review them with that person. Discuss cause and effect.
Have your friend/coach tell you when they see you deviate.
Don't try fixing it all at once.

You've gotten a LOT of quality information.

Consider getting yourself to look good through the approach, your timing, swing slot, etc. While doing so, just roll a straight ball at anything but the pocket.
Shape of shot and score should not be your focus.

Too bad Shadow Bowling is not an option, it helped Earl Anthony.
Your focus is clouded by too many things.

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » December 28th, 2019, 4:00 pm

Krava, you might need tools to help you get where you want.


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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » December 30th, 2019, 4:26 am

I am going to wait on this topic, we are backing back up to the beginning. I listened to MAV and I didn't think that my backswing was loose at all. I went today and also took Kamjak (i misspelled the nick) advice and tried to shadow bowl. The closest I can come to that is to go into one of the games and have it set up 1 pin. I told it to set up nothing but it doesn't allow that so I just put up the 7 pin. I did a game of 1 step drills with just the 7 and I didn't once feel any pull down at the arm or force. My ball speed was 12.2-13.3 I was bowling between 2 people and i felt that these people might think that I miss everything I throw at. So the next game i set up the 7 pin. I shot at the 7 pin and made it 10/10 times with the ball speed 19.9-20.3 which to me is too fast somehow but it didn't really seem forced (it sure didn't feel smooth though) but I will address that later. i went back threw another game of 1 step and then moved on and started to see if I can bowl and just think about having a loose swing and don't pull down at the top.

It took me a few shots but I did start to me throw it pretty well. I mean when you throw the ball and your first reaction is "wow that felt smooth" then I think that was a pretty good shot. I was also able I think to swing at and angle and not perpendicular so that was closer to the body. I am not sure how to explain to someone how to do a loose swing. You can use words such as don't put any effort in it (which I didn't) but even if you don't put effort and you move your body before the ball comes down, it will pull on the ball. I felt my right shoulder open up somehow. With a smooth swing, I was able to keep the postion on the ball alot easier too. I have no idea if I was inside the ball or not, I will worry about that later. Swing is more of an issue then inside the ball to me. I can feel the / direction of the swing instead of just the | direction I am used to (I stood at a angle when shooting today) In my opinion, you can't really do much at all if you don't have that smooth backswing. You can't fix anything until that is fixed is what I mean. Two handers and a few other people are exempt from that though.(like buttraff etc) it was hard to see if I was inside the ball because the lanes were all messed up. I ended up using a storm match pearl drilled low flare with about 40+ games on it without redoing the surface on it and played 7 at the arrows out to about 3.

I couldn't get video because too many people in the way. Tomorrow I should be able to get video and to see if I have a "sort of fixed backswing".

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » December 30th, 2019, 4:45 am

also it cost $7.50 to bowl for an hour and I didn't know that until a week or so ago instead of just paying $2.20 a game. I shot like 5 or 6 games and when I was done I was going to switch lanes and bowl another hour. I wasn't hurt, or tired or anything. Major distraction on my right side which I won't go into and was going to get a different lane and try again but it got late. But it didn't feel like I put much effort in tonight and shoulder is fine and everything.

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » January 8th, 2020, 7:41 am

This is driving me nuts on this. Is it possible to keep your fingers pointed to the left of 12 o clock the entire swing and do it correctl or does your fingers at some point have to turn to the right of 12 (like 1 or 2pm etc). I looked at sean rash and it looks like he holds the wrist position and the cock of it the entire swring not moving it. I do this all the time but somehow I think I am on the outside of the ball all the time when I do and not sure what he does that I dont. I know that if I turn the ball to the right on the pushaway, I can get inside of it and NEVER chicken wing it but then it is hard to get back into the position I was in when I started.

I played with the idea of holding the ball with fingers at 12 pm (0 rotation straight up the back of the ball), Then get to the back swing, and at the top of the backswing, rotate my fingers inward toward me. It is hard "grabbing the ball" when it is coming down and also getting the wrist under it and then doing the release correctly. I actually did the chinese spinning thing once or twice trying to do that just spinning it like a top somehow.

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » January 8th, 2020, 1:56 pm

Baby steps, work on getting your hand behind the ball first. You’re focusing on the last part of the chain and not concentrating on the position that the arm needs to be in. Lead with the inside elbow and quit pulling the ball down.
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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by kajmk » January 8th, 2020, 4:25 pm

44boyd wrote:
January 8th, 2020, 1:56 pm
Baby steps, work on getting your hand behind the ball first. You’re focusing on the last part of the chain and not concentrating on the position that the arm needs to be in. Lead with the inside elbow and quit pulling the ball down.
To help groove the feel of what Stacy described, try practicing in front of a mirror with a small exercise ball.

Look at Amazon for example -
Bean Products Soft Weighted Ball Sets for Exercise Rehabilitation Yoga Pilates Easy Grip Non-Toxic Phthalate Free 2 lb 4 lb 6 lb Single or Set

Video reference, note the foam tube, note the tape on the arm.
That tape is near the spot that blood is drawn from. Try thinking "Give blood to the pins"



On the single pin set up, intuitively, I think a pin in the center of the deck would be better. Why? So you can incorporate Ondar Gurkans Everything towards target practice. This straight on approach allows you to check alignment, where you start and finish. Remember straight ball, remember Greg Helms advice, PAP market, straight ball first before moving on.

Feel is very important. If you groove the feel, it can help you sense when it's different.

Inch by inch row by row ...

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by GrumpyCatFace » January 8th, 2020, 5:12 pm

Following with interest.

I made a valiant attempt at getting ‘inside the ball’ last night - pointing my hand a bit away from me on the backswing - but this mainly resulted in me turning my wrist too soon at the bottom, and spinning my shots down the lane.

I didn’t feel like I could genuinely avoid turning my wrist, as the ‘snap back’ when the ball weight comes down would be dangerous to my arm.

Maybe it’s perception, or something else incorrect in my posture. I really can’t tell.

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » January 8th, 2020, 10:15 pm

New tips from JR

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by krava » January 10th, 2020, 6:58 am

I have to agree with you on that 44boyd. The 1st thing is the wrist. I went today and I was completely thrown off until almost the end of the 3rd game. I had the balls I had rolling with the worst ball motion I ever seen, alot didn'[t have any kind of hook and were dead balls. I think that was due to almost 0 rotation being thrown with them. I had problems with broken wrist, not keeping my elbow on the inside, and also almost all balls 90+% had too much forced behind them. I figured this out at the end. I can keep my fingers pointed like I wanted to at around 10 and 11 the entire time, also on the pushaway keeping the elbow in.

here is another question, when you are aiming the ball how do you aim? The guy in the proshop says he aims with his 4th finger. I struck out in the last game toward the end and finally got the ball hooking and rolling right. I aim using sort of the V between my thumb and my first finger I keep that pointed at the pins at all times except at the end If I had to say, If you took the first line on you first finger and then drew a line straight up 90 degrees that i what I use to aim.

Then the question is, if you can keep your hand so that the V of the thumb and 1st finger is pointed at the pins the entire time. Wouldn't your fingers be on the inside of the ball at the release point if the V is still in that position? I think it is.

After bowling, I went to another lane and I used a Rotogrip Hustle drilled pin down and control (which is the weakest ball I had), I was able to throw it 7 or 8 to about 2 or 3 and it even hooked passed the head pin once and that was at probably 19.8 off the hand. So I had to have had something on the ball to hook like that. ( i was that far right because I was left and kept leaving flat 10s with the conspiracy over and over again).

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » January 10th, 2020, 3:04 pm

Listen to the PSO, lead with ring finger and inside elbow. For your approach and slow arm swing 19 mph off the hand is still muscling it. The ball hooked because you were in the dry ONCE AGAIN.

No where did I state the wrist is the problem, it’s the arm swing and closing of the right shoulder from pulling the ball down that gets you in a weak position at release.

Here’s a video of Kris Prather, he rolls the ball forward until he lofts the gutter in this video. Notice the left arm extended down to help keep the shoulders from closing and how his hand doesn’t turn until the thumb has already exited. Your perception of good ball roll is off, forward roll with rpms WILL HOOK.

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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by MegaMav » January 10th, 2020, 3:37 pm

44boyd wrote:
January 10th, 2020, 3:04 pm
Your perception of good ball roll is off, forward roll with rpms WILL HOOK.
Sure will, and will hit harder with the roll phase (Max RPMs) than throwing whirlybirds hitting the pins in the hook phase.
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Re: Getting Fingers on the inside of the ball

Post by 44boyd » January 10th, 2020, 5:02 pm

For EXTREME examples of leading with the inside elbow, Roger Bowker and Bob Learn Jr.



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