Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

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Starion
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Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by Starion » November 11th, 2019, 5:32 am

As a male bowler I'm just getting into my own equipment for the first time and using a 14# to ensure I develop good technique and steady control, yet I rarely ever see or hear what the pros use...presumably 16#, with some going 15#? I've never even bowled league yet.

What about the ladies? I don't guess most are using the heaviest equip out there, nor do the ladies throw as fast on average, and I wonder how this translates to scoring. It seems that the faster & heavier ball athleticism would result in higher scores via stronger carry, but how much is this the case?


Bowling really is cool that there really is no standard difference like in basketball (smaller ball), volleyball (shorter net), even golf (closer tee off), etc. It's all up to the bowler.

So how do male & female scores compare at the various levels??



Main reason for asking is to alleviate potential doubts of my "only" throwing a 14# with ball speed of 15.5-16 mph. I expect to increase as I get better (esp. if I get a working thumb grip added - thumb-less one hander ATM and I realize the limitations of this). Thanks in advance

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kajmk
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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by kajmk » November 11th, 2019, 6:09 pm

A few words, some of which I'm repeating I'm sure ...

As a new bowler, you could not find a better time to work with an effective instructor.
One who will "simplify the effort and maximize the results" (paraphrasing Jim Merrell).

Habits take time to form and replace, so form good ones.

In bowling just like in life, strive to be the best version of you.

[youtube][/youtube]

Now a days 16 pound balls are probably much fewer than prior to reactive resin and exotic weight blocks which amplify ball reaction much more than their plastic, polyester, urethane ancestors. Norm Duke and Missy Parkin use or have used 16 lb balls.
I don't know if and where reliable data would be.
Pros coined the term "too much toy" as reactive resin balls hit too hard for them, thus they dropped weight.
At the elite level, men tend to outscore women, but any woman can beat any man.
Skill levels vary.
Bowling is optimized by efficient body movement and timing that suits an individual.
Yes muscle does play a part, but it is the BIGGER body muscles and Core muscles.
(See the ETBF video)


I believe you bought the original "Par Bowling" by Tom Kouros. That book is a true classic.

As a contemporary reference, I recommend "Bare Bones Bowling" by Brian Voss.
Also peruse the wiki for articles and external references both online and physical media.
Norm Dukes DVD is still out there on YOUTUBE .

I highly recommend you watch the ETBF video below. It's on the wiki and also available in 3 parts on YouTube. This will answer many of your questions and stimulate your mind.

[youtube][/youtube]


Finally, this bit of wisdom set to verse.

[youtube][/youtube]
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by boomer » November 13th, 2019, 5:24 pm

Starion wrote:As a male bowler I'm just getting into my own equipment for the first time and using a 14# to ensure I develop good technique and steady control, yet I rarely ever see or hear what the pros use...presumably 16#, with some going 15#? I've never even bowled league yet.

What about the ladies? I don't guess most are using the heaviest equip out there, nor do the ladies throw as fast on average, and I wonder how this translates to scoring. It seems that the faster & heavier ball athleticism would result in higher scores via stronger carry, but how much is this the case?


Bowling really is cool that there really is no standard difference like in basketball (smaller ball), volleyball (shorter net), even golf (closer tee off), etc. It's all up to the bowler.

So how do male & female scores compare at the various levels??



Main reason for asking is to alleviate potential doubts of my "only" throwing a 14# with ball speed of 15.5-16 mph. I expect to increase as I get better (esp. if I get a working thumb grip added - thumb-less one hander ATM and I realize the limitations of this). Thanks in advance
Hey Starion

Honestly, I think it's better for us (mere mortals) to emulate the ladies than the men. Almost everyone I've talked to agrees with that. The men are more powerful, and typically more powerful than WE can get (with exceptions) so rather than comparing myself to someone I'm not going to get to (like a Rash or something) how about emulating someone that I'm probably closer to. . .

There is a bit of a problem with changing weights. The weight changes how your "pendulum" works so . . . I've noticed a significant change when I went from 15# to 16# - and when I kept my original WD spare ball at 15#, it wreaked havok with my game. Upping that to be consistent with the rest of my arsenal got me many many more 10 pins.

If you can handle it, I'd recommend going to 15# and sticking there. A problem with lighter equipment is that we can have the potential to try throwing it harder. Harder is not always better. . .

Anyway - just a thought.

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by kajmk » November 13th, 2019, 5:53 pm

boomer wrote:
Hey Starion

Honestly, I think it's better for us (mere mortals) to emulate the ladies than the men. Almost everyone I've talked to agrees with that. The men are more powerful, and typically more powerful than WE can get (with exceptions) so rather than comparing myself to someone I'm not going to get to (like a Rash or something) how about emulating someone that I'm probably closer to. . .

There is a bit of a problem with changing weights. The weight changes how your "pendulum" works so . . . I've noticed a significant change when I went from 15# to 16# - and when I kept my original WD spare ball at 15#, it wreaked havok with my game. Upping that to be consistent with the rest of my arsenal got me many many more 10 pins.

If you can handle it, I'd recommend going to 15# and sticking there. A problem with lighter equipment is that we can have the potential to try throwing it harder. Harder is not always better. . .

Anyway - just a thought.

STRONGLY agree!
I've recommended that most folks should study and emulate elite lady bowler's, as does boomer.

Boomer cited Sean Rash
Here's an excerpt from a sports science video.
[youtube][/youtube]
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by Starion » November 14th, 2019, 10:19 am

Thanks all. Interesting info & vids. Seems to confirm my feelings on it, as did this vid:

[youtube][/youtube]

Seems a pretty marginal difference in pin impact all things considered. My ball speed and revs seem more important than 1-2 # weight diff...of course given the best feel and comfort in a natural & consistent form & release.

I won't sweat it too much and will prob. stick with the 14# for now, until I can fine tune my release a bit more - esp. if I add the use of the thumb, in which case I do expect improved stability and a possible step up to 15#. I'm not having problems trying to throw it harder/faster as mentioned. Biggest issue is consistency and stability without the thumb (so far). Not terrible, but a main focus.


I plan on picking up the Columbia 300 Baller (w/ promo for free White Dot) which ends in December, so I want to determine weight by then. Given I just got the Resurgence as 14#, I'll work on things there without scrapping it to move up too early. Again, glad to reassure a bit lighter is not that important.

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by kajmk » November 14th, 2019, 4:13 pm

A few tidbits

There are various YouTube videos dealing with warm ups, cool downs, stretches, strengthening, rehab, as they pertain to bowling.

I'm an advocate of using props to get attuned to new movements or rehearse movements.
Flexibility, mobility, and balance are very important.


A few samples ...

[youtube][/youtube]


[youtube][/youtube]


[youtube][/youtube]


Elite coach Mark Baker said that the first thing he analyzes in a bowler is their footwork.
Coach Jim Merrell and others, teach "Balance beam footwork".

This wiki link has some skill drills presented by the folks from Kegel.
Kegel is a " Go to" source for bowler education.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by 44boyd » November 14th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Starion wrote:Thanks all. Interesting info & vids. Seems to confirm my feelings on it, as did this vid:

[youtube][/youtube]

Seems a pretty marginal difference in pin impact all things considered. My ball speed and revs seem more important than 1-2 # weight diff...of course given the best feel and comfort in a natural & consistent form & release.

I won't sweat it too much and will prob. stick with the 14# for now, until I can fine tune my release a bit more - esp. if I add the use of the thumb, in which case I do expect improved stability and a possible step up to 15#. I'm not having problems trying to throw it harder/faster as mentioned. Biggest issue is consistency and stability without the thumb (so far). Not terrible, but a main focus.


I plan on picking up the Columbia 300 Baller (w/ promo for free White Dot) which ends in December, so I want to determine weight by then. Given I just got the Resurgence as 14#, I'll work on things there without scrapping it to move up too early. Again, glad to reassure a bit lighter is not that important.
For help with control, use a grip aid like rosin of grip cream. Also, Tom Daughtery wets his forearm with spit to help the ball stay.
Stacy

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by kajmk » November 14th, 2019, 10:26 pm

If going thumbless, have you considered the two handed style?
Yes it is a demanding style, but the legs play a more dominant role. Your listed ball speed makes me wonder if your hand size curtails your back swing.
Some bowler's are blessed with great flexibility and or hand size that allows a higher Backswing while not using the thumb. There is a very good no thumb one hander here and he is one.

Mike Miller switched from using the thumb, to not. He is the brother of star bowler Dana Miller Mackie (LPBA). Note Chris Warren, a smaller and slightly built bowler.

[youtube][/youtube]

Then there is the two handed style

[youtube][/youtube]

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... y_elements" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you elect to try the two hander, rehearse the technique by the divide and conquer method.
Mirrors, videos, small soft exercise ball (Pilates ball), then light house ball.

Keep in mind that many folks do not know what they look like during bowling, ergo the importance of video or a reliable witness ...

Of course, working with a coach who gets good results and is open minded is a PLUS.
Ron Hoppe and Jim Merrell are two Coachs who have the added asset of an open mind.
I mention this because some Coachs will discourage styles for the wrong reasons.
When Amelleto Monacelli and Mark Roth trailblazed their styles, many would not teach their technique. A good coach will know if a technique is viable for a person or not.

As a new bowler, you have the advantage of not having much to unlearn so to speak.

Take care.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

Starion
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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by Starion » November 15th, 2019, 6:07 am

Thanks again all.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14500&p=113532#p113532
^ A few of you seem to have responded to my other thread more dedicated to my endeavors vs this one on speed/equip of male to female. IF that topic is wrapped up???... I'm happy to keep my game's tangential comments coming here too (esp. since the other thread is only open to coaches I think) ;)


I'll "practice" drill an old garbage ball with a thumb & try that in a few setups if needed even before deciding to stay & work on thumb-less or keep at it til right.

7 5/8" wrist to middle tip. Normal size I figure w/ pretty skinny fingers...so not stubby short paws, but I can't quite palm a bball either. Volleyball is about my limits. Don't get me wrong, I'm doing okay (ave 170s, ranging from 150s-200s on late house), but not where I want & still early in diving into this seriously.
:arrow: An arsenal vs one ball will help too. :lol:

I'm fairly certain my back swing height and wrist cupping stability are the largest limitation(s) in speed & consistent control. I feel my grip is a large factor in causing those if not the largest. Hard to hold higher/longer up in backswing with so little to grab onto. I might work on wrist cupping more in back swing but that reduces arc travel and adds more movement in my wrist.

I want to try with support a thumb should add, esp. if it's not significantly diff than my currently established form already is. Hard to know until I try. I've never randomly found a three hole ball that fits me right.


:| Two-handed is so far off from my established approach. Not interested in that. It'd be like building a new car when I know I need sets of diff tires, a fuel pump, and a retunes of the engine.

I'm seeking a reasonably local certified coach to address in person to help with ball fitting as well. My local guy just wants to drill straight up & see what happens without a proper assessment. I'm considering that with a junk ball for starters, but all I have is a urethane.

Dumb question but...
A good coach be able to still assess my stats on urethane right? rpm, axis tilt, etc.
+ Well enough combined with my no thumb Resurgence to determine drill pattern moving forward I assume?? :idea: Seems a logic first step.

(in addition to talking shop on here & reading/researching up of course). :) :geek:

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by Starion » November 15th, 2019, 6:35 am

kajmk wrote:
Keep in mind that many folks do not know what they look like during bowling, ergo the importance of video or a reliable witness ...
Agreed. I've been watching in full mirror while practicing approach at home & taking notes. Making small changes 1 at time then going to late night lane time to try them out. ex. Left balance arm was never in my mind, it now helps a lot!

Yes - I'll get vid & post for sure...prob. not til early Dec as I'll be out of town for family & work til then). Need a better tripod unless my shorty can work on a tall chair. This is mostly philosophical game-planning & resource sharing until then.
kajmk wrote:Of course, working with a coach who gets good results and is open minded is a PLUS.
Ron Hoppe and Jim Merrell are two Coachs who have the added asset of an open mind.
I mention this because some Coachs will discourage styles for the wrong reasons.
When Amelleto Monacelli and Mark Roth trailblazed their styles, many would not teach their technique. A good coach will know if a technique is viable for a person or not.

As a new bowler, you have the advantage of not having much to unlearn so to speak.

Take care.
^ EXACTLY! I'm searching for a good coach now. I have been bowling thumbless recreationally for 22 years though, so def. some habits...hopefully not too bad though.

Who knows!? Maybe with coaching I won't need a thumb!? TBD, but I'm open to trying things...the right way, not blowing through multiple balls with bad drills & wasting time & $$ while damaging my form to match a poor setup.

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Re: Male & Female Technique, Equipment, & Scores

Post by ICURNVS » November 18th, 2019, 7:05 pm

Due to some arthritis and carpel issues i was forced down to 14lbs 4 or 5 yeas ago.

At first i had issues with speed, namely over throwing it. But in time i became consistent.

I really did not see much difference in scores with 14lbs, but sometimes there is a noticeable difference with ball specs between the 14s and 15s. But as you are just starting, specs can be worried about later as you progress your game.

At this point in your game, Finding someone you can get lessons from and also finding someone to drill your ball correctly are high on the to do list

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