help identifying ball roll

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krava
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help identifying ball roll

Post by krava » November 2nd, 2019, 6:52 pm

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[youtube][/youtube] 2:27 mark for 2 shots.

My 2 low flare light/medium balls like to roll like that when the lanes have oil on them. I call that "bad ball roll" I don't see the hook phase in that. If I see the ball rolling like that, should I continue to throw the shot or change the ball to something that has a better look? I was gulity of that last night. I had a rocketship and thought the ball looked like it was burning up just a tad bit early, so I switched to the match pearl to get more length and it rolled like that. I threw the ball missed brooklyn, then moved a board left hit the pocket but didnt like the look, then jumped 2 more boards left and 2 at the mark with the supersonic and it looked alot better.

he could be going straight under the back of the ball to get it to roll like that also. So the question is, if the ball is rolling like that, is that proper ball roll? It looks like it is rolling almost end over end.

also at 4:10 2 things. Wouldn't that be a strong asym drilled ball ? and how would that be drilled? Long and strong? #2 To throw it like that, it looks like he has his fingers in the ball for a long extended time. Is he rotating his hand with a lot of rotation

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by 44boyd » November 2nd, 2019, 8:15 pm

Chris Barnes dropped his shot, not sure where you’re getting bad ball roll. Prather is rolling what looks like an Idol Pearl, could be an Astro Physix. That shot was brutal so more the likely bad ball reaction if anything. As for your balls, if they roll like that for you then they’re burning up because you come off the side of the ball. So it’s burned up the rotation and tilt. For Prather lofting, with your shoulder why even try?
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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by deanchamp » November 3rd, 2019, 12:33 am

krava wrote:He could be going straight under the back of the ball to get it to roll like that also. So the question is, if the ball is rolling like that, is that proper ball roll? It looks like it is rolling almost end over end.
Bowling quick with very little rotation to play straight and control the backend. What is proper ball roll? Whatever gets the job done.
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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by krava » November 3rd, 2019, 10:15 am

2:28-2:35 Kyle sherman is what I am talking about. it is hard to see on the right lane but you can see it on the left lane when the person is out of it. Look at his shot on lane 31, He usually hooks the hell out of the ball but played it pretty straight but the roll is what I was referring to. The only thing I am conserned with is how the ball is rolling.

Proper ball roll I throught consisted of 3 stages. Skid, hook and then roll. I can't identify all the stages with that kind of roll, something is missing. I looked at it a few more times. It looked like he was putting 0 rotation on it on purpose. If you put 0 rotation on a strike ball, is that a good idea though to drive through the pins?

The only reason I am asking is because on here I was told that if the ball doesn't have a "roll phase" then it isn't a good ball to be throwing. I can't see where it hooked and then rolled.

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by 44boyd » November 3rd, 2019, 12:40 pm

Yes that is a good ball motion, bad ball reaction for that shot. You’ll hear “up the back” for rolls like that, because that’s getting the ball into an early roll and makes the backend less jumpy. If you’d go back to your drills, it’s literally what Jim has been trying to teach you.
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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by TomaHawk » November 3rd, 2019, 1:58 pm

Professional bowlers will adjust their release mechanism to accommodate lanes conditions.

Bad ball reaction can occur on any particular shot in a match. While we tout, watch the ball as it is going down the lane, sometimes, in one shot, the ball reacts in a totally unexpected manner than that which had been experienced previously in the tournament. That shot, at the wrong time, sends a bowler home.

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by deanchamp » November 4th, 2019, 3:05 am

krava wrote:2:28-2:35 Kyle Sherman is what I am talking about. Proper ball roll I thought consisted of 3 stages. Skid, hook and then roll. I can't identify all the stages with that kind of roll, something is missing.
Yes I was replying about Sherman. With that sort of roll he is shortening the hook phase to control the backend.
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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by krava » November 4th, 2019, 6:23 am

I know that is what Jim was trying to teach me. I can throw up the back of the ball with no problem. I do 0 rotation every straight spare shot. My spare game is getting better and better. In the last 11 "broken down" house shot games on 2 different houses, I have missed only 1 single pin spare and that was the 10 pin (fell into the gutter about 2 feet before the pin). I chopped 2-3 spares. Example 1 2 4. Got the 1 2 and sent the 2 infront of the 4 and missed. 3 6 10 completely missed the 3. 3/4 pins of the bucket with the double wood gone, missed the one on the right. Made the 5 8 10 I believe it was tonight. Back on the topic though.

In order to throw the ball like how Kyle did, all I have to do is hold the ball with my 4th finger at 10:30 3rd finger at 11:30 or 10 and 11 depends. Just keep that same position on the ball all the way and then just let the ball go at the end. That isn't completely end over end, that just gives it a slight hook. Then the more hook I want the ball to do, the more I hold the ball and turn my hand counter clockwise. (if the ball gets turned early or hit up on etc then that kills the point of trying to keep the hand position the entire time).

That shot is good to throw if the fronts are fried, and there is alot of carry down around 8-10 at the pattern exit point. Also good if the backeneds are real jumpy and hook alot.

Back to Prathers shot, correct me if I am wrong in any of this. This is what I am assuming. #1 there is no carry down when he was throwing that shot and there was good to a ton of backend action. If that is the case, I have no idea how on this earth I can ever practice something like that. I bowled on the lanes tonight (which probably haven't been oiled since Saturday morning when they had the kids league). Just a ton of plastic going down the middle. I tried 1 shot at the 2nd arrow and the ball was dead. I moved to 1st arrow and got a good reaction. I noticed that if i got into 8-10 the ball would slide and not hook out of it. (storm match pearl). I stood left foot spliting the ball return that connects the left and right side (probably 15 boards left of last dot as a guess), shot somewhere around 5th or 6th arrow (i forgot). I couldn't ever get the ball to come back. Tried my best to drop the speed but only managed maybe 1 mph off. (so like 15mph on the monitor). Also forgot to come around the ball and I was trying to spin the ball off my fingers. Also had 1 end up in the gutter. Ended up with 80ish game trying to play that shot after averaging a little over 200 on the last 2 houses. I played the first game 1st arrow. 2nd game jumped from standing on 19 to 30 boards to the left or so. 3rd game took out a radical conspiracy shot accross 13 out to 6 or so to get the ball to start to react. The shot acted like a flat pattern shot. Every flaw was exposed

in the end, I will work on brad and kyle's 7 arrow shot

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by 44boyd » November 4th, 2019, 1:18 pm

Zero rotation will have you rolling over finger holes, he was probably around 35 degrees and it gets into a forward roll burning the rotation off. The more you move in, the more around it you have to get. If you know what Jim is trying to teach you, why would you ask the question if it is a good roll?
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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by TomaHawk » November 4th, 2019, 1:56 pm

krava: "in the end, I will work on brad and kyle's 7 arrow shot"

You're kidding, right?

krava, there are very good players around town that have tons of 300's and 800's, they never play the 7th arrow. Why? Because there are better ways to control ball reaction.

It seems, with all the physical issues you've experienced, you would try to simplify the game for your own well being.

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by kajmk » November 4th, 2019, 3:35 pm

TomaHawk wrote:krava: "in the end, I will work on brad and kyle's 7 arrow shot"

You're kidding, right?

krava, there are very good players around town that have tons of 300's and 800's, they never play the 7th arrow. Why? Because there are better ways to control ball reaction.

It seems, with all the physical issues you've experienced, you would try to simplify the game for your own well being.
Sound advice.
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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by krava » November 7th, 2019, 4:54 am

the 7 arrow drill is where you take the same ball I think and start at the first arrow, then go to the 2nd arrow, then move all the way to the 7th and the goal is to try to strike from each arrow. The drill is suppose to get you familiar with playing the entire lane I believe and not being scared of moving etc.
I haven't done it yet and not sure when I will get around to that drill. I am going back to the 1 step drill in a bit.

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by boomer » November 7th, 2019, 5:57 pm

krava wrote:the 7 arrow drill is where you take the same ball I think and start at the first arrow, then go to the 2nd arrow, then move all the way to the 7th and the goal is to try to strike from each arrow. The drill is suppose to get you familiar with playing the entire lane I believe and not being scared of moving etc.
I haven't done it yet and not sure when I will get around to that drill. I am going back to the 1 step drill in a bit.

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I think that is too big a jump for you.

Honestly, my opinion is to keep your fundamentals and then build a three-tier game. Get your A-game (which seems to be 12-8 - I think that's too direct for you, but if that gets you good general results, cool) - then build a B-game at least 10 boards to the left (parallel) - 20-10(ish) - depending on your house shot. Get comfortable swinging it a little (and that's NOT much swing - remember, where your foot is, your ball is already ~7 boards to the right of that) and then build a C-game which is 5-10 boards right of THAT - 30-15(ish).

If you jump all the way up to 7-arrow drill, you're going to get stuck and frustrated and build bad habits. One thing is - how do you BOWL that 7th arrow with the ball return??? Right now that will kill your fundamentals.

But if you build a THREE arrow game, you'll prepare yourself and START building some flexibility.

You don't go from an out-of-shape walker to doing the splits right away . . . you START stretching. . . then you stretch more, then you stretch more . . .

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Re: help identifying ball roll

Post by Leftybowler70 » November 7th, 2019, 8:56 pm

boomer wrote:
I think that is too big a jump for you.

Honestly, my opinion is to keep your fundamentals and then build a three-tier game. Get your A-game (which seems to be 12-8 - I think that's too direct for you, but if that gets you good general results, cool) - then build a B-game at least 10 boards to the left (parallel) - 20-10(ish) - depending on your house shot. Get comfortable swinging it a little (and that's NOT much swing - remember, where your foot is, your ball is already ~7 boards to the right of that) and then build a C-game which is 5-10 boards right of THAT - 30-15(ish).

If you jump all the way up to 7-arrow drill, you're going to get stuck and frustrated and build bad habits. One thing is - how do you BOWL that 7th arrow with the ball return??? Right now that will kill your fundamentals.

But if you build a THREE arrow game, you'll prepare yourself and START building some flexibility.

You don't go from an out-of-shape walker to doing the splits right away . . . you START stretching. . . then you stretch more, then you stretch more . . .

Sound advise.

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