USBC says no more U20

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USBC says no more U20

Post by TonyPR »

A future for the sport does it again:

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19 year olds (and probably some 18 yr olds) will have to play adult tournaments.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by psycaz »

At first blush, totally despise this.

No clue how this will effect collegiate bowling, especially the women’s side. NCAA regulations usually frown upon athletes making money in their sport while competing. Most of the collegiate women’s teams fall under those regs. Haven’t seen anything as far as some type of clarification on how they’ll be impacted.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by boomer »

I'm not sure I see the controversy in this.

What other sport allows 18+ to compete as kids? (honest question - not being sarcastic, I don't know so I'm asking)

I know many sports allow kids to compete as adults (shooting sports, golf and tennis come to mind) and quite a few sports almost penalize adults past a certain age (not the sports themselves, but getting "old" means they can't compete - like gymnastics)

But I can't think of a sport that allows 18+ to compete with <18.

Most of the time collegiate sports can't compete at HS level anymore. I can't think of any time that collegiate can compete with HS. Maybe this would be a better dividing line? (say, end of June their Senior Year or 18th BD, whichever comes later. . .?

so (and I'm honestly asking - no sarcasm, no agenda) why is this a problem?
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by MeNoRevs »

boomer wrote:I'm not sure I see the controversy in this.

What other sport allows 18+ to compete as kids? (honest question - not being sarcastic, I don't know so I'm asking)

I know many sports allow kids to compete as adults (shooting sports, golf and tennis come to mind) and quite a few sports almost penalize adults past a certain age (not the sports themselves, but getting "old" means they can't compete - like gymnastics)

But I can't think of a sport that allows 18+ to compete with <18.

Most of the time collegiate sports can't compete at HS level anymore. I can't think of any time that collegiate can compete with HS. Maybe this would be a better dividing line? (say, end of June their Senior Year or 18th BD, whichever comes later. . .?


so (and I'm honestly asking - no sarcasm, no agenda) why is this a problem?
Its just the fact that USBC makes a rule change and the people despise USBC will find fault in it somehow.

IMO, someone that is 20 years old is not a youth in any sport. Matter of fact, the top 3 picks in the NBA draft this year are 19 years old.

I am with USBC on this, and believe 18 is the perfect cutoff age for youth.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by TomaHawk »

The real issue with U 20, it's taken USBC this long to realize it was a problem. Similar type scenarios have existed forever. How much sleep does USBC get anyway?
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by spmcgivern »

The main problem I see is if there is going to be any issues with NCAA (women) being able to bowl adult leagues. I agree with bowlers over 18 competing with bowlers under 18 isn't ideal. But I also understand how the NCAA can be a little unforgiving.

I am not sure how many NCAA bowlers bowl leagues, may not be many, so it may be a non-issue. Just one aspect of the new rule that will have an affect on some.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by Mongo »

spmcgivern wrote:The main problem I see is if there is going to be any issues with NCAA (women) being able to bowl adult leagues. I agree with bowlers over 18 competing with bowlers under 18 isn't ideal. But I also understand how the NCAA can be a little unforgiving.

I am not sure how many NCAA bowlers bowl leagues, may not be many, so it may be a non-issue. Just one aspect of the new rule that will have an affect on some.
I ~agree with kids over 18 not bowling against 12 year olds, BUT, what do collegiate bowlers bowl in during the off season. All adult leagues compete for money and the NCAA being the NCAA, they would gladly pull eligibility over winning $30 for a season.

USBC didn't fully flesh this out (as usual) and should have come up with something for the kids who need an competition option during this 3-4 year time period.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by TomaHawk »

Mongo wrote:
I ~agree with kids over 18 not bowling against 12 year olds, BUT, what do collegiate bowlers bowl in during the off season. All adult leagues compete for money and the NCAA being the NCAA, they would gladly pull eligibility over winning $30 for a season.

USBC didn't fully flesh this out (as usual) and should have come up with something for the kids who need an competition option during this 3-4 year time period.
NCAA rules absolutely must uphold regulations regarding professionalism. It should never be undermined in its effort to maintain parity among athletes. If the NCAA wants to say, accepting any sort of monetary prize would result in the reversal of a person's amateur status, that ruling should be upheld without interpretation from outside sources.

Right from the beginning, USBC's involvement in the collegiate bowling environment should have been viewed by the NCAA with skepticism. Rightfully, the NCAA looked to USBC for guidelines. After all, USBC knows everything about bowling. But, USBC should not have become the "governing" body of collegiate bowling.

NCAA has bigger things to concern itself with than five people on a college campus who want to roll a ball at some pins. From an outside perspective, it looks as if NCAA stepped aside, saying to USBC, "Have at it". If there were any issues arising from decisions made by USBC, it has no one to blame but itself.

Beyond that, bowlers on collegiate teams can do what every collegiate amateur athlete does in the off season, practice.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by Mongo »

I'll save my thoughts on the NCAA for another day, but I agree 100% that the USBC should have been overseeing collegiate bowling from day 1.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by TomaHawk »

Yes, the NCAA is another topic in itself. We could go off in a hundred different directions on that one.

About the U 20, people were crying about the age differential way back. It seemed, guys with full beards were bowling against children and taking every advantage of that situation. Not only that, some of them were on collegiate teams.

Why does that make a difference?

Collegiate bowlers get a lot more structured practice time than the average bowler or any bowler for that matter. That practice time is basically free. They have a lot more equipment and have participate in many more tournament style settings too. Grant it, that does not make them automatic winners, but it sure does put the odds in their favor.

Why it took USBC so, so long to realize what was going on speaks volumes about their very existence.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by TonyPR »

My daughter’s birthday is in May, she just turned 14 last May... her last year of playing youth will be at 17 years of age while her friends whose birthday is after August 1st get to play youth at 18... that sucks!

...oh and about age, I know a lot of 15-17 year olds who would earn a lot of money in adult leagues, I listened to an interview of Belmo where he was telling Diandra how as a youth he earned thousands of dollars by competing in tournaments as Australia does allow youth to play for money. I am sure youth would benefit more from kicking adults’ butts and earning cash (for college or Nike sneakers it depends on the parents) than from the petite cash earned from SMART scholarships... many people see USBC as the almighty ruler of bowling... I like them less every day.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by boomer »

why does your daughter's youth age end at 17? I thought the point of this was that youth age ends at 18?

Yes - most sports allow youth to participate UP. That, I don't think, has ever been a problem (money aside, of course, but that's not the USBC's thing, that's NCAA's thing and they are their own brand of stupid) - look at, well, NBA, Tennis, Golf, NASCAR has had a youngun in it (and they have their own "minor leagues" full of kids), etc. etc. etc.

That isn't the issue. The issue is adults participating DOWN. Between 18-21 there is significant maturity development as well as physical development. Allowing an 18yo to bowl with 14, 15, 16yo is fine, but allowing a 21yo to bowl with a 14, 15, 16yo? Seriously, that's not right. Kids that young are a mess - can you not remember when you were that age? I know - it's foggy for me (ROFL) but I do remember that I was all over the map, and I was gangly and awkward and uncoordinated as all. At 20? I had gained muscle mass, I had gotten MUCH more coordinated (I only tripped over my feet every 20 steps instead of every other step! ROFL), and after getting fired from a job (which I think every kid should have happen to them - grows you up a bit, it does!) I matured quite a bit. And this is actually TYPICAL.


What would be interesting, aside from all of this theoretical stuff, would be to see the ages of the winners of these so-called youth tournaments where actual kids are bowling against young adults. If, somehow, kids are beating the pants off the 19-21yo young adults, then I'll eat my words - but I would be seriously surprised. Not if it happens every so often . . . There will be Kobe Bryants, Tigers, Vettel's or Alonso's. . . but consistently. . .
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by boomer »

By the way - a corollary to this. Why don't we allow 35yo people to play on the 50+ tournaments? Bowling, golfing (are there any other "masters" groups in sports? IDK) - an older player can play in the "normal" tournaments but no way would a youngun be allowed to play in the geezers tournaments. . .
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by TonyPR »

Bowlers who turn 18 before July 31st will be 18 before the break date. Anyone whose 18th birthday is August 1st or later can play that year but has to take the Safe Sport Certification... I attended the USBC webinar last night and heard it from the horses mouth...

Another new thing, and this has more to do with the Safe Sport federal law, if a youth plays in a league where other adults play, all the adult players in that league need to get Safe Sport certified.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by ICURNVS »

The change makes sense to me.. It better aligns with High School sports age wise.

Yes some kids who turn 18 before their Sr year will be affected, but it will not affect their high school bowling, just who they bowl against in Youth tournaments.

Seeing as they already bowl against 20u bowlers currently... not seeing much of an issue aside from missing 1 year of Pepsi / USBC Youth
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by boomer »

TonyPR wrote:Bowlers who turn 18 before July 31st will be 18 before the break date. Anyone whose 18th birthday is August 1st or later can play that year but has to take the Safe Sport Certification... I attended the USBC webinar last night and heard it from the horses mouth...

Another new thing, and this has more to do with the Safe Sport federal law, if a youth plays in a league where other adults play, all the adult players in that league need to get Safe Sport certified.
So - wait - if a bowler's BDay is July 30th, that would mean their last day of eligibility would be July 31 (basically the end of the academic year - ours is June 30/July 1, but that varies) while if the BDay is Aug 1, they would have the next academic year, right?

Yeah - I think that's what I was saying and is actually pretty standard - although I found Virginia places that age at 19 "on or before the first day of August" - I found this all over the place. The date changes (often to Sept 1) and is often used for younger leagues (14 comes up often) but this is very common verbiage - wonder why USBC didn't use this?

I THINK (and correct me if I'm wrong) this is functionally the same as what the USBC stated: "who have not reached the age of 18 prior to Aug. 1 of the current bowling season" . . . hmmmm, this might be a mistake. Honestly, they should have just adopted existing verbiage . . .

Actually - I think this places the USBC at one year YOUNGER (I tried doing calculation but I need a LOT more coffee first. . .) than other rules. . . which is not right. Honestly, they should have just adopted the existing rules from other organizations.

USBC - reinventing the wheel as a square. . .
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by boomer »

So - sorry, long post that eventually just said, I agree with you, at least on the specifics. The effort is correct, but they made it a year young. They should have just copied the verbiage from NEARLY EVERY OTHER sports organization and used that.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by TonyPR »

Yep
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by pocket710guy »

So if you are in high school and bowl in a men's league you forfeit your right to bowl in high school competition. That's the way it's always been. Should apply to college until you're out of college and go pro.
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Re: USBC says no more U20

Post by ICURNVS »

pocket710guy wrote:So if you are in high school and bowl in a men's league you forfeit your right to bowl in high school competition
Thats not entirely true...

If your a youth bowler and the Mens league agrees to pay your winnings to a SMART account, then your allowed, providing all members take the online safty course.. cuz you know.. its full contact bowling....

This will vary by state as some states (ohio) forbid bowlers from bowling any leagues or tournaments while high school bowling is active. It gets even goofier in ohio.. during the off season (summer season) (fall season) you can only have 2 kids from the same HS on a team. if you have more than 2.. those kids could be ruled ineligible from HS bowling

Ohio has a 50% of the starting lineup (rounding down) rule for off season. So baseball is 4, basketball and bowling is 2. Its really silly
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