Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

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krava
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Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

Anyone that can play left where they have to play 4th or 5th arrow, which version do you use to throw the ball.

Version #1 Stand as far left as you can with your left foot, then just keep drifting far left once you pass the ball return until you are as far left as you need in order to throw the angle you want to.

Version #2 Stand infront of the ball return shorten your steps and throw the ball?


I have seen both of these versions done on video. I have never tried version 1 of this. if you do that, doesn't that throw the ball off track in the swing and then you have to pull it to you and back in order to throw it? Or is there a trick you have to do in order to do that? Purposely swing the ball in one direction and then move and when you move the ball lines up correctly so you can throw it?


Then another minor question is how far left with your left foot do you need to stand in order to hit 4th arrow. The closest right you can move in order to hit it? For me to hit 4th arrow and hit the 10 pin, I have to stand 7 boards left of the last dot on the approach. Then the other question is how far left can you stand on the approach and throw the ball and the ball return not get in the way?
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by elgavachon »

krava wrote:Anyone that can play left where they have to play 4th or 5th arrow, which version do you use to throw the ball.

Version #1 Stand as far left as you can with your left foot, then just keep drifting far left once you pass the ball return until you are as far left as you need in order to throw the angle you want to.

Version #2 Stand infront of the ball return shorten your steps and throw the ball?



I have seen both of these versions done on video. I have never tried version 1 of this. if you do that, doesn't that throw the ball off track in the swing and then you have to pull it to you and back in order to throw it? Or is there a trick you have to do in order to do that? Purposely swing the ball in one direction and then move and when you move the ball lines up correctly so you can throw it?
Then another minor question is how far left with your left foot do you need to stand in order to hit 4th arrow. The closest right you can move in order to hit it? For me to hit 4th arrow and hit the 10 pin, I have to stand 7 boards left of the last dot on the approach. Then the other question is how far left can you stand on the approach and throw the ball and the ball return not get in the way?
Ball returns do not stick out onto the approach an equal distance in all centers. You have to adjust for how far out it is. An easier trick to walk around the return for me is to aim my feet at the left gutter. you have to stand a little farther to the right in some centers. I actually have to start the ball above my left leg so my swing feels straight. step forward with left foot and across with right foot, but as ball swings back, you have to get your right leg out of the way ahead of the swing which is a quick step (on a five step approach) and gives the feel that your legs are left of your body. picture a rail road track with your feet going up the left rail and your head and body going up the right rail.
Standing in front of the ball return was easier for me to master, but I could not get enough speed doing it that way.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

Thanks for that, I will see if I can get some video today. I can somehow stand infront of the ball return and throw at the 10 pin and on the monitor it shows 20.3-20.6mph and I don't know why. I am very accurate and it doesn't "seem" to feel forced. Now trying to throw the ball out and in, I have to slow the ball to 15.6-16.5 or so. I will see what happens tonight.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

Here is video where I am in front of the ball return and lanes are dry (this is a storm rocketship)

[youtube][/youtube]


Whole video (includes the above) of 1 game after 1 step drill on 28th: [youtube][/youtube]
The only good thing about that video is I adjusted pretty well. To many things to count wrong with what is going on there though. Ball being pulled down by shoulder too quickly, fingers not on the inside of the ball, Right foot is not tucked under and also pointing in the wrong direction unlike in 1 step drills etc and etc.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by 44boyd »

The lane is burnt at 15 and the ball is just riding that track. You need to hold the finish position, it’ll let you know you were all over the place with your balance.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

how long do you hold the finish position, until the ball hits the pins?
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by 44boyd »

Yes, off the pin deck. Watch the Kegel Finish Drill video, watch your finish drill video, then watch what you actually do with approach. They’re all different, you should be repeating what you practice until it looks like the Kegel video.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by kajmk »

Regarding the ball return issue.

Here is one strategy.
Historical perspective, Mike Durbin won the Firestone TOC, a major 3 times, once with a 3 step, once with a 4 step, once with a 5 step.
Del Warren won 1 with a 3 step or 3 1/2 step, at the advice of John Jowdy.

This video is part of the 10 part Kegel Teen Masters Tips which can be found on the wiki

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by b3y0nd3r »

WWBD(what would Belmo do)? He starts at his normal approach spot then side steps in front of the ball return.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by kajmk »

b3y0nd3r wrote:WWBD(what would Belmo do)? He starts at his normal approach spot then side steps in front of the ball return.
It definitely can be done. I did it when I was messing with thumbless.
It's fun, but by no means easy.

Try different methods ...
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by boomer »

Easier said than done - the problem with the leap left is consistency. I've NO idea how Belmo does that so consistently - and it's not his normal start spot, he moves left and right, but his normal approach has that huge left move every time.

I can NOT get that down. I don't think most people can get that down - it's a pretty big "moving part" to stick in a delivery. . .

Which is why, I think, that Kegel coaches, etc. teach the 3-step approach for when it's needed. I know that I will be practicing it.

Thank you for the video, Kajmk
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by kajmk »

boomer wrote:Easier said than done - the problem with the leap left is consistency. I've NO idea how Belmo does that so consistently - and it's not his normal start spot, he moves left and right, but his normal approach has that huge left move every time.

I can NOT get that down. I don't think most people can get that down - it's a pretty big "moving part" to stick in a delivery. . .

Which is why, I think, that Kegel coaches, etc. teach the 3-step approach for when it's needed. I know that I will be practicing it.

Thank you for the video, Kajmk
Definitely not easy. Belmo is definitely an elite athlete. Agree on the 3 step gambit.
That Kegel video set is a go to set.

I saw Del use a 3 step back in the 80's, he said John Jowdy advised him to try it.
Del was having timing issues. Jowdy did a lot for bowler's, I heard some interesting stories about him. I used to take lessons from Rolf Gauger, Rolf and John were friends.

Hope the video helps. I can point and fetch, just can't hunt :oops:
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by pocket710guy »

Short 4 step. just takes practice.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

Don't need to start a new topic. Today the lanes were super dry and couldn't find oil. No oil inside of 5 and had to move all the way to 5th arrow or inside of it. IF I am correct my left foot was 28 boards left of the last dot which put me +8 boards on the other people's lane to my left.

The question is, playing that far left, how do you know when you need to more more left or when to just loft the ball more? I couldn't get the ball to show any return hook once I got it to 10-12 and it rolled out. I tried slowing the ball speed down but that didn't work and it went left. I believe that the front part of the lane was burnt so I should have lofted the ball further out on the lane to get around the burnt front? The options are loft or more even further left. I was forced to use a weak ball too. I was using a storm rocketship. I was dealing with drills today but did 3 games of drills while focusing on timing and trying to keep right elbow in. I got tired of it and wanted to see what I can do in "the real world".

If I am not mistaken, if you left the ball go and it starts to turn left way too soon, then your in a burnt part of the lane, I think you can try to put loft on that. If you put loft and it still hits the lane and turns left then you have to move left and try again?
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by 44boyd »

It’s not rocket science Krava, thinking waaaayy too hard about this. If you throw a good shot and it goes high/Brooklyn move left. End of story, when you run out of lane to the left then yes lofting can get the ball to not read the lane as soon. I recall that you have for some reason a lot of control layouts on your equipment. You need a long and strong on a medium reactive pearl symmetrical to save energy for the backend.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by boomer »

Honestly, if you're that far off on one lane, grab a different ball.

If you think the heads are that burnt up (and you're right in your thoughts, I think) then grab a pearl if you have one. That's what they're for, after all. Get through the burnt heads, into the oil, then run through.

I will stay with the same ball as long as I'm around 4-5 boards. But any more than that and I'm going to grab a less aggressive ball for that lane.

Remember you're playing the lanes. If one lane says I want aggression, but the other whimpers and says NO, not so hard, then play the lanes! Don't try to force them into each other. . .

Have you ever watched the pros play with two different patterns? That's what you had - and they play each differently BECAUSE they're different. :)
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

I have 1 long and strong ball, Columbia 300 Serve FX it is drilled to go as far as possible and snap back. I will keep that in mind when coming up against that. I have a hustle that is drilled pin down to go pretty far and then hook in but that is kind of a weak ball to me. The hustle is not a pearl.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by kajmk »

Always remember that numbers are secondary to who wins the match.

When all else fails, simplify and grind it out, that might mean trying a straight game, keeping the ball in play, making spares.

Talk about challenging conditions ...

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by krava »

I just watched about 90% of that telecast. I don't understand why they played where they played? They used plastic and I understand that. Their balls weren't overhooking "that much". A lot of their shots on the 1st shot went too straight. Why didn't they angle the ball more \ I mean not much of a diagonal but a small slant to gain entry angle to the pocket? They could have played between 1st and 2nd with a small \ but I didn't see anyone try. They threw a lot of week deflective shots. If the lanes were super fried, then you would have seen that spare ball hook to the left of the 10 when throwing at it and none of them did that. I don't know why a few shot at the 4 or 7 so directly and not cross laned like 2nd or 3rd arrow on the right. I have some pretty good experience with fried lanes. Then throw the ball 0 rotation and with the wrist broken back \ ways at it.
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Re: Rght lane playing far left, ball return in the way

Post by 44boyd »

Did you watch with the sound off? Barnes explained it.
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