Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outside

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Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outside

Post by kajmk » June 15th, 2013, 5:33 am

Recently, Jim Merrell posted a reply to the forum topic pros inside...amateurs outside
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8158" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; post #10

Jim's comments and analysis have been added to the coaching section of the wiki see
Pro’s play the inside of the ball and the amateurs play the outside of the ball
wiki snippet.JPG
This is a direct link to the article, please enjoy, educate, share.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... f_the_ball" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The title of this article paraphrases a comment heard by a forum member while viewing a PBA telecast.
Many of you who have watched PBA telecasts have heard this expression before.
Jim offered "his interpretation of the announcers comment" to explain and clarify, something e does quite well.

Remember when there were "tip of the week" segments on the telecasts?
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by turbotwister » June 16th, 2013, 1:37 pm

I'm the one that posted the question and I sure see the difference in the photo's. I for one DO come off of the side and will begin working on the inside of the ball...tape included! Thanks for reposting this so everybody can see the diff because not everybody reads all of the posts. I'm 68 but the older I get ,the more I seem to learn .I consider myself a student of the game even at my age and I'm also up to a 200 average in 2 different houses because of this site and people such as you for the input that you give to us all...young and old. happy bowling.

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by EricHartwell » June 16th, 2013, 5:19 pm

Turbo... I commend you on your efforts with your game.
Don't let my next comments discourage you.

The pros are at their level for a reason. They are special people with special ability and strength. As I have gotten older my release has changed. I can still stay inside the ball but....not for a whole set. My wrist cannot handle the stress. I have conceded to the fact that I am not as strong as I used to be. When I do stay inside the ball these days my release specs change quite a bit. I go from matched speed to revs med tilt high rotation to a slower rev dominant release with higher tilt and lower rotation.

So what I am saying is to note your release specs before changes and remeasure them after you have adapted to staying inside the ball. You may want to have different layouts on your equipment to facilitate the improvement.
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by Bdgf99 » June 16th, 2013, 11:39 pm

I agree. I have learned more this season (at age 31 and 17 years bowling adults, college, etc) than I did in the last 10 combined.

A lot of it comes down to effort and willingness to do the research, do your homework on and off the lanes, and some resourcefulness and resources (financial and otherwise). Yes it does cost money to bowl more and become better, but there are ways to be creative and save.

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by StevaReno » June 17th, 2013, 3:48 pm

I prefer to think of it this way; "The best professionals bowlers have the ability to utilize multiple releases including an "inside" release." There are times when playing such an extreme inside release would not be the best option.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by kellytehuna » June 17th, 2013, 4:34 pm

Pay close attention to his hand position as he goes in to the release area on both releases. They are pretty much identical. His hand stays toward the inside part of the ball. On the lower rotation release, he merely allows his hand to move a little bit around the ball before the release, while the higher rotation release, he allows his hand to sweep around the ball much farther.

As Mo and Jim have said, from a position inside the ball, you can stay behind it, or get around it. If you're already outside the ball all you can do is let it go.
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by JMerrell » June 17th, 2013, 6:08 pm

kellytehuna wrote:Pay close attention to his hand position as he goes in to the release area on both releases. They are pretty much identical. See attachments below. His hand stays toward the inside part of the ball. On the lower rotation release, he merely allows his hand to move a little bit around the ball before the release, while the higher rotation release, he allows his hand to sweep around the ball much farther.

As Mo and Jim have said, from a position inside the ball, you can stay behind it, or get around it. If you're already outside the ball all you can do is let it go.
Well stated Kelly.
The tape placed on the PAP agrees with you.
Let's all click +1 for Kelly!
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by JMerrell » June 17th, 2013, 6:32 pm

StevaReno wrote:I prefer to think of it this way; "The best professionals bowlers have the ability to utilize multiple releases including an "inside" release." I agree There are times when playing such an extreme inside release would not be the best option.
Most professionals I have watched maintain their baseline hand position entering the release area. Its what they do as the hand moves through the ball that differentiates the amount of axis rotation. As illustrated in the video by Chris.

How about same lane condition, same ball, same bowler........different degrees of axis rotation.

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

Many thanks to Cary Pon, he shared these videos with me 10 years ago.
If any of our members see Cary, tell him I said hello.
He used to work for USBC coaching as his passion for educating coaches was second to none.
Unfortunately, he didn't fit the image of leadership and was let go.
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by guruU2 » June 17th, 2013, 10:48 pm

JMerrell wrote:If any of our members see Cary, tell him I said hello.
He used to work for USBC coaching as his passion for educating coaches was second to none.
Unfortunately, he didn't fit the image of leadership and was let go.
Last report, Cary Pon lives in Baltimore.

ANOTHER "brilliant" move by "leadership".
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by DAVIDINIL » June 20th, 2013, 12:06 am

I feel I need to add a little to the discussion of playing the inside part of ball. In my own game playing the inside was never successful because I was never able to get my thumb to exit the ball at the proper time. Since my thumb and fingers exiting so close together, trying to be inside the ball was never that effective for me. I would throw something akin to a backup ball. With my poor thumb timing, I HAD to throw from the outside of the ball or it really hurt my wrist.

Rick Benoit diagnosed my thumb exit problem and gave me a series of drills that helped train my thumb to exit the thumb hole better. Rick uses the phrase "work the circumference of the ball" to refer to your fingers moving from underneath the equator of the ball to above the equator. This imparts revolutions. The thumb exits the ball while the fingers are under the equator. This frees the hand to naturally let the fingers move from under to over the equator. As my thumb timing improved, I found it to be much easier to work the inside of the ball.

SO while I completely agree with the theory of "inside the ball" goodness, for me it never came together until I learned to get my thumb out before or at the same time as the acceleration point. Once my thumb clears the hole, my hand is free to rotate from the inside to the outside part of the ball, and from under the equator to over the equator, generating axis rotation as well as revolutions.

Rick also told me that getting my thumb out properly will also generate a more stable roll that is not as sensitive to oil transition as before. His theory is that a release that lifts up thru the ball creates a roll that is hyper-sensitive to the oil. He wants me to think of the force of my fingers being directed towards the pins, not the sky. This type of release generates a ball that doesn't react to transition as much.

Great post gentlemen!
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by GBuck » June 20th, 2013, 5:43 pm

DAVIDINIL wrote:I feel I need to add a little to the discussion of playing the inside part of ball. In my own game playing the inside was never successful because I was never able to get my thumb to exit the ball at the proper time. Since my thumb and fingers exiting so close together, trying to be inside the ball was never that effective for me. I would throw something akin to a backup ball. With my poor thumb timing, I HAD to throw from the outside of the ball or it really hurt my wrist.

Rick Benoit diagnosed my thumb exit problem and gave me a series of drills that helped train my thumb to exit the thumb hole better. Rick uses the phrase "work the circumference of the ball" to refer to your fingers moving from underneath the equator of the ball to above the equator. This imparts revolutions. The thumb exits the ball while the fingers are under the equator. This frees the hand to naturally let the fingers move from under to over the equator. As my thumb timing improved, I found it to be much easier to work the inside of the ball.

SO while I completely agree with the theory of "inside the ball" goodness, for me it never came together until I learned to get my thumb out before or at the same time as the acceleration point. Once my thumb clears the hole, my hand is free to rotate from the inside to the outside part of the ball, and from under the equator to over the equator, generating axis rotation as well as revolutions.

Rick also told me that getting my thumb out properly will also generate a more stable roll that is not as sensitive to oil transition as before. His theory is that a release that lifts up thru the ball creates a roll that is hyper-sensitive to the oil. He wants me to think of the force of my fingers being directed towards the pins, not the sky. This type of release generates a ball that doesn't react to transition as much.

Great post gentlemen!
What were the drills to help your thumb exit the ball better?

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by DAVIDINIL » June 21st, 2013, 2:33 am

GBuck wrote: What were the drills to help your thumb exit the ball better?
figured someone was gonna ask that :o It's difficult to put into words. But I will give it a go. He spent 10 minutes explaining it to me and also has a video on the BowlU website (subscription required, recommended tho. Rick is one of the top coaches anywhere).

The whole drill is done in a standing position. with ball in hand, taking no steps, swing it back to into a backswing. Doesn't have to be very high. Let the ball descend from the highest point in your backswing, until it is at your ankle. when ball is beside your ankle, momentarily pause. Then accelerate your hand forward, whilst your thumb exits the hole, also while letting the ball hang as far out onto your fingers as possible. You are trying to make it so that it feels automatic that your thumb exits at the same time you begin accelerating your hand. You will be able to feel your fingers move from under to over the equator of the ball. You do not need to do an excessive amount of cupping your wrist, but you do want your fingers to be under the equator as the ball is by your ankle. You want to imagine the force of your fingers pushing out towards the pins, not towards the sky. At the end of the drill you should be standing in your finish position as you would be at the line.

I do this drill in my basement with an old ball. No need to be at the lanes for this. you are not trying to have speed on the ball in the drill. You are just trying to train your thumb. If you train your thumb timing correctly, you can really rip thru the ball and generate tons of revs without throwing thru the breakpoint.

Rick has several other drills that can also be used to learn this. This one seems most effective for me.
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by Trojanz » June 21st, 2013, 4:09 pm

Thanks to DAVIDINIL recommendation a few weeks ago I paid and joined the BowlU website.

Rick's breakdown of the release and drills for execution are the best I have ever seen! The site has a lot of good content overall . I should point out, I have had lessons from both PBA players and coaches names that you would easily recognize, that failed where Rick succeeded when it comes to teaching skills. That's the good

The Bad the website that Rick runs seems to be a work in progress. As far as user experience on the site it is the worse site I have ever seen. The site is very confusing, clunky and unnecessarily complicated . Obviously Mr. Benoit is very ambitious in what he wants to do in attempting to bring bowling instruction to the masses. But there is a titanic sized gap between his vision and actual execution.

Overall IMO I found value in joining the site as it gave me drills I could do from home on a daily bases and my game has improved as a result.
Last edited by Trojanz on June 22nd, 2013, 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by DAVIDINIL » June 21st, 2013, 10:55 pm

Trojanz: you are welcome. I have found the content to be quite good too but you are very correct about the website clunkyness. I am in the Info Tech industry and so called Rick up to chat about it. His challenge is that he is a bowling coach not a website designer. He's had to learn how to do it himself. He thought the answer would be to hire out for the IT work. But he found that he was spending a ton of time on the phone trying to communicate the vision to the tech help folks. He travels constantly so it is a challenge. But he is aware of the issue and is actively working to streamline things.

I tell you. It's easy to see that he's the real mccoy when you see him work a PBA stop. So many of the players are asking for his input and advice. In the Milwaukee Summer swing he was spending a lot of time with Loschetter in particular and told me he had been working w/ Chris a lot lately. That worked out pretty well.
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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by kajmk » June 21st, 2013, 11:16 pm

Trojanz wrote:Thanks to DAVIDINIL recommendation a few weeks ago I paid and joined the BowlU website.

Rick's breakdown of the release and drills for execution are the best that I have ever seen! The site has a lot of good content overall . I should point out, I have had lessons from both PBA players and coaches names that you would easily recognize, that failed where Rick succeeded when it comes to teaching skills. That's the good

The Bad the website that Rick runs seems to be a work in progress. As far as user experience on the site it is the worse site I have ever seen. The site is very confusing, clunky and unnecessarily complicated . Obviously Mr. Benoit is very ambitious in what he wants to do with the site and bringing bowling instruction to the masses. But there is a titanic sized gap between his vision and actual execution.

Overall IMO I found value in joining the site as it gave me drills I could do from home on a daily bases and my game has improved as a result.

A quick comment on the website. I'd seen it quite a while ago and had a similar if not quite as blunt opinion. Politely stated, I think the site could stand a reworking.
Promulgation of Ricks excellent work and methods is being handicapped by a poor technical presentation.
As a stater, consider the K.I.S.S. principle, no need to dazzle folks with cyber-pyrotecnics
I agree that the website is turnoff. I say this with your best interests at heart.

Rick your talents and knowledge are being handicapped by that web presentation.
We do have some Web Developers on Board here, e.g. kellytehuna.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by kajmk » June 21st, 2013, 11:38 pm

guruU2 wrote: Last report, Cary Pon lives in Baltimore.

ANOTHER "brilliant" move by "leadership".
I met Cary briefly at one of the USBC seminars back in the early 2000's. He did not know me from a hole in the wall, yet he was cordial and courteous and displayed a love for the game and an interest in people one on one. How can the USBC be better without him?


A few more words on "playing the XXX of the ball". I like to refer people to this video lesson by Richard Shockley. It's food for thought and perspective and a few minutes well spent.
Ron Clifton also comments on this in an article in his archive of tips. Coach Shockley and Clifton have a lot of fine information on their websites, check them out if you have not done so.

[youtube][/youtube]
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by Trojanz » June 22nd, 2013, 1:22 pm

DAVIDINIL wrote:Trojanz: you are welcome. I have found the content to be quite good too but you are very correct about the website clunkyness. I am in the Info Tech industry and so called Rick up to chat about it. His challenge is that he is a bowling coach not a website designer. He's had to learn how to do it himself. He thought the answer would be to hire out for the IT work. But he found that he was spending a ton of time on the phone trying to communicate the vision to the tech help folks. He travels constantly so it is a challenge. But he is aware of the issue and is actively working to streamline things.

I tell you. It's easy to see that he's the real mccoy when you see him work a PBA stop. So many of the players are asking for his input and advice. In the Milwaukee Summer swing he was spending a lot of time with Loschetter in particular and told me he had been working w/ Chris a lot lately. That worked out pretty well.
I almost messaged you when I couldn't find my way around Rick's site, yes it's that bad to navigate around. :oops:

But it's weird in a way, because I still feel like the skills that I'm building because of Rick, that I already got more then my monies worth. I "tore it up" again in league last night. While people complemented my new smooth but powerful stroke.

I'm starting to bowl now the way I have always wanted to bowl! Mr. Benoit is a big reason for that. So I'm a pleased customer :D

When BowlU comes through the west coast I'll go to one of the live trainings.

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Re: Wiki update - Playing the Inside of the ball vs the Outs

Post by kajmk » September 3rd, 2019, 7:35 pm

This video posted by 44Boyd, may be a good training device.
It seems to assist in governing sublimation or pronation of the forearm depending on how it's worn.

The forum and topic might be misleading

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14498" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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