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 Post subject: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:31 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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(I'm ready for the heat)

So on Mo's latest video, he says that the PAP should be measured every 6 months as it changes. He said in previous videos that the PAP is always changing. With this in mind, what is the point of the PSO going through the trouble of custom drilling(besides proper fitting) when they could use the manufacturer recommend layouts?

For the record, I am a no thumb one hander that uses manufacturer recommend layouts and the ball really reacts as the layouts suggest.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:35 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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First off I do not know of any manufacturers that have no-thumb layouts on the drill sheets. If you know of any please post a link.

For the talented bowler adapting/changing of the release to manipulate the ball to a desired roll is second nature quite often taking place on a sub-conscience level.
I would say you are just getting lucky that you are getting desired ball roll with the manufacturers recommendations.

As for your comments about needing to check your PAP every 6 months, sure, if you are at the developmental stages of bowling.
I believe if someone has been bowling for many years their A-game roll has been the same for a long time. Barring injury or a change in style it isn't changing much at all. Differences you would find is the margin for error in the release.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:57 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
First off I do not know of any manufacturers that have no-thumb layouts on the drill sheets. If you know of any please post a link.

For the talented bowler adapting/changing of the release to manipulate the ball to a desired roll is second nature quite often taking place on a sub-conscience level.
I would say you are just getting lucky that you are getting desired ball roll with the manufacturers recommendations.

As for your comments about needing to check your PAP every 6 months, sure, if you are at the developmental stages of bowling.
I believe if someone has been bowling for many years their A-game roll has been the same for a long time. Barring injury or a change in style it isn't changing much at all. Differences you would find is the margin for error in the release.


Here is a link:

https://radicalbowling.com/tech-docs/a- ... l-patterns

As for me, I don't think I am just getting lucky with the standard layouts I use. I have 14 balls drilled per MSL all roll as the layouts recommend. I could be just manipulating one or two balls, but for 14? I just don't think im that good.

IF I can get things rolling for me, I will do an in depth video of my arsenal, how I throw, and how I came to the chosen layout and it's effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:49 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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From what I know Mo is the only one publishing anything about the no thumb layouts. This doc you reference does not take into consideration the specific ball like on his typical recommended layouts for each specific ball he has out.

I have a hard time believing you when you say you have 14 balls all drilled from manufacturers recommendations and you are getting the reactions you wanted/expected. Especially after reading your post about going to an all Urethane arsenal.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14389&p=112671#p112671

Say what you will about having tuned layouts verses manufacturers recommendations, I firmly believe having a custom layout makes that piece of equipment better for the bowler using it.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:07 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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b3y0nd3r wrote:
(I'm ready for the heat)

So on Mo's latest video


Here's the video being referenced:

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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Not sure I agree with the assertion that different bowling balls will have a different PAP, due to the core.
We are concerned with the PAP at the laydown point, not five feet from the foul line.
If the bowler releases the ball the same way with every ball, the PAP should be a constant. Otherwise the BowlerID measurement system would be inherently invalid.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:09 am Post Number: #7 Post
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snick wrote:
Not sure I agree with the assertion that different bowling balls will have a different PAP, due to the core.
We are concerned with the PAP at the laydown point, not five feet from the foul line.
If the bowler releases the ball the same way with every ball, the PAP should be a constant. Otherwise the BowlerID measurement system would be inherently invalid.


The core does have an influence on the hand before release.
Low diff balls cause a slightly higher track due to less pulling on the hand.
Asyms pull harder in most cases causing a slightly lower track.

Get an average and stick with it until you know you're throwing it different or have a fit change.
Last I checked we're still not putting them in orbit so an average is good enough and its way better than nothing!

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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:34 am Post Number: #8 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Get an average and stick with it until you know you're throwing it different or have a fit change.
Last I checked we're still not putting them in orbit so an average is good enough and its way better than nothing!


The PAP and tilt are guidelines. The better the bowler is the more important these tolls become. For the high level PLAYER (maybe 7% of the bowlers) these numbers are very important but the rest the bowlers these numbers are of decreasing value. The ability to repeat shots i crucial here. I believe, as MegaMav probably does, a valid average of the PAPs is a tool that has merit for 93-97% of all bowlers.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:18 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
From what I know Mo is the only one publishing anything about the no thumb layouts. This doc you reference does not take into consideration the specific ball like on his typical recommended layouts for each specific ball he has out.

I have a hard time believing you when you say you have 14 balls all drilled from manufacturers recommendations and you are getting the reactions you wanted/expected. Especially after reading your post about going to an all Urethane arsenal.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14389&p=112671#p112671

Say what you will about having tuned layouts verses manufacturers recommendations, I firmly believe having a custom layout makes that piece of equipment better for the bowler using it.


My PSO had a drill sheet he wanted to use for me. Don't know where he got the no thumb layouts from(I didnt use them). To be clear, I am using the standard layouts that have a thumb but not having the thumb hole drilled.

As for my Urethane post, I have since discovered I was "Chicken winging" the ball and solved the issues for the most part. However I am still thinking about it.

Like I said, I am going to try to piece together a video. I will show the ball, layout and then throw it and you can decide if what I am saying is accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom drilling worthless?
 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:03 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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I spent 15 years helping in a proshop. I haven't been doing it for about 15 years now and a lot of the core and drilling technology was just developing.

I probably watched 10k different bowlers of all skill levels come thru the shop. Of those I could only name about 10 who could change their pap's at will, most of them would later be PBA winners and several major winners. Rick Steelsmith, Justin Hromek, Chris Barnes, Patrick Healy and some others who came thru the WSU program could do it.

The bulk of those who thought they would change their rolls would revert to normal hand position at release and get pretty much their standard roll. They started with different hand positions, they might turn their hand out more or less or alter their swing path some but in the end they got pretty much the same roll. It takes a special talent to do it on demand and control it.

I went to the Quantum schools in the mid 90's on drilling and layouts. At that time the consensus was pretty much if you had the PAP within an 1 inch of it's true position their wasn't much change in the ball reaction from hitting it dead on.

I'm sure some may change their pap some over time but I doubt they move it an inch or more unless some sort of injury has happened.


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